Could someone tell me?

[jepuskar]

The most important thing one can do, no matter what your dive level is, is to continue learning. During this learning, you will hopefully learn the proper techniques to prevent some of the topics discussed here.


Mike, what time were you at Haigh and what day this weekend? Also, where were you in the quarry? It was pretty crowded all weekend.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I got there about 10 am on Sat and was there all day and did a night dive with an advanced student. I was there at about 9 am on sunday and was there all day. We were set up in front of the stone building (the one with the fire place). The idea for this thread came from my advanced student who, especially after the night dive, expressed his displeasure with the conduct of the divers around us. I was also trying to finish some OW students who were straglers that couldn't get finished up earlier in the season. One of my OW students said she couldn't imagin why anyone would want to dive where they cant see and wouldn't do a second dive saying she would do her diving where she could see better. There was no negotiation. Her mind was made up. It was frustrating because she is doing well. It was also frustrating because when you could find a place that hadn't seen any trafic for a while the vis was nice.

 

[Aquamaniac]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...

Here's the ugly truth:
You could form an agency with those policies. Of course, you won't get any customers, but at least you'll be the best available until you file bankruptcy.
Rick

Yep, your 100% right Rick, for as long as there are instructors and stores who are willing to take short cuts, we will never have proper training, glad you see it the same way I do.

Dave

 

[roakey]

I suggest if you instructors really want to know how to make a successful go at teaching students how to dive right from OW class you contact Andrew Georgitsis at http://www.fifthd.com/. They’ve introduced a subset of the DIRF class into their basic OW instruction and from all reports it’s hugely successful and it’s being taught out of an established, successful shop.

The problem that you’re up against is “The Lost Art of Diving.” Nowadays the six-months-from-OW-to-instructor types have very little diving knowledge. They may be taught rescue techniques and teaching techniques but beyond OW and maybe AOW they haven’t been taught any DIVING techniques.

They don’t know what they don’t know, and that’s the core of the problem.

This is why there’s a growing market for the DIRF classes. It’s the only class about DIVING that’s out there, including PADI’s so-called “Peak Buoyancy” class.

About the best question you can ask an OW instructor to know if they’re any good is “Are you Full Cave certified?” No guarantee, but if they are you’re far more likely to get instruction from someone that actually understands trim.

Roak

 

[MikeFerrara]

If we are willing to settle for what we have then, for certain, that is what we will get. I see alot of divers. My position is that we need to raise the skill level or prevent them from diving. Even in fresh water and even if it is privately owned that much silting does damage to the criters that live there and destroy the diving for others.

It is damaging, rude and in some cases maybe even dangerous. IMO, to promote it is unethical.

The casual exceptance of the total incompetance I witness in almost all the divers I see is what I see as the cause.

Staying in business by promoting and selling this crap is, IMO, nothing to be proud of.

It doesn't take that much effort to stay out of the bottom, my OW students do it. the problem is lasiness. It starts with an instructor who is too lazy to properly weight a student and spend a little time teaching proper technique. It is the fifference between 5 min swiming and 5 min hovering in the pool and a couple of hours of practice.

Instead instructors stuff the students pockets with weights to sink them to the bottom and there they sit and do skills. Then, if the 20 min isn't up yet they go for a WALK around the lake. After the class they continue to dive this way (just like their instructor).

I watch it every time I'm in the water. I am not exagerating even a little. IMO, there is no excuse for this level of incompetence.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Maybe a few of these instructors should spend a few days in one of Andrew's open water courses. Then they would see it is possible to teach OW and good fundamentals at the same time. Maybe Andrew should have special classes for instructors that lasts a few days and gives them a better idea how to teach this way. You could even dive in the PNW after a few days observing these guys in action.

The DIRF is becomming very popular. We just filled a class for Nov. 8-10 in Indianapolis. All the new students comming out of ow classes here are encouraged to dive with our core group. We try to be good role models to them. All of a sudden they get interested in diving the way we do. Now I have another potential DIRF student. If this one goes well, we may need to hold another in a few months.

Dan

roakey once bubbled...
I suggest if you instructors really want to know how to make a successful go at teaching students how to dive right from OW class you contact Andrew Georgitsis at http://www.fifthd.com/. They’ve introduced a subset of the DIRF class into their basic OW instruction and from all reports it’s hugely successful and it’s being taught out of an established, successful shop.

The problem that you’re up against is “The Lost Art of Diving.” Nowadays the six-months-from-OW-to-instructor types have very little diving knowledge. They may be taught rescue techniques and teaching techniques but beyond OW and maybe AOW they haven’t been taught any DIVING techniques.

They don’t know what they don’t know, and that’s the core of the problem.

This is why there’s a growing market for the DIRF classes. It’s the only class about DIVING that’s out there, including PADI’s so-called “Peak Buoyancy” class.

About the best question you can ask an OW instructor to know if they’re any good is “Are you Full Cave certified?” No guarantee, but if they are you’re far more likely to get instruction from someone that actually understands trim.

Roak

 

[Jarhead]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
Kneeling, on a platform there for the purpose, is an efficient way to get beginners through their regulator retrieval/clearing, mask clearing, weightbelt off & on & BC off & on without stirring up the surrounding bottom. We have 'em do those drills there, then get 'em into a hover before moving them over the natural bottom.
While it would be nice to have the time to hone buoyancy skills to the point the students could do these drills in mid water without flailing - crashing into the bottom and really stirring it up or rocketing to the surface because they're concentrating on clearing the mask instead of fine tuning buoyancy, it just ain't gonna happen, and having them kneel in a nice stable position actually results in far less silting.
Everything else y'all are whinin' about needs fixing, but if you want to see a real flailex, try taking students on their first open water dives without letting them use the bottom for stability.
Rick

Rick, have you noticed a geographic pattern of the complaints of silting?

 

[jepuskar]

I was setup on the side of the stone building..on the grass. We had about 3-4 picnice tables and were the ones with the spread of food in the building around 11am or soo. I wish I would of known you were there, I haven't met anyone from this board yet. A couple women have turned me down already..oops...anyway...

I think I am going there this Saturday for my deep and navigation dives. I am probably going to be videotaping the underwater pumpkin carving contest there on the 27th also. That should be interesting.

Jason

 

[MikeFerrara]

roakey,
You are 100% correct. If one looks through my old posts I have stated the same thing. Beyond AOW (if even there) there is no training in technique unless one hooks up with a good cave or tech? instructor and continues there.

In fact, some of the teaching techniques we are using in our OW class are the direct result of phone conversations I have had with JJ. Most of you know, I do not through around the term DIR as I have no connection with GUE or WKPP. However there is no pattent on good technique and I will steal good ideas wherever I can.

BTW, all three of my DM's are full cave certified and just watching them is a great help to my students. Of course it's not being full cave that helps but having good technique. My DM's wouldn't be cought dead sitting on the bottom. Students copy us with little urging. If you overweight yourself and drag your feet with your head skyward they will copy that also.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dan
I tried all summer to set up a DIRF and got the run aroud as far as dates. It wasn't until the end of that ordeal that i got hooled up with an instructor who would give a date. The earliest he had was Nov. so we decided to wait untill next year.

Unless we can make changes that effect the majority it won't make a significant difference.

IMO we need higher quality where a diver receives their basic training because there will always be many who don't seek any additional training. An OW class needs to get a diver headed the right direction.