DAN vs Diveassure

[Genesis]

What I am asserting is that at least for the time being you'll generally have an easier go of it with DAN, especially in foreign locations, and ever more especially in remote foreign locations.

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that.

You won't be dealing with some front-liner when it comes time to be released from the hospital. You'll be dealing with the finance office - and they are going to be well-versed in who is who in the world of such things.

It is at least somewhat likely that AIG built the hospital you will be in - no matter where it is!

Second, when it comes to whether a claim will be paid, it is all about financial stability. DAN's is a flat unknown. Yes, they have a many-year track record, but is it all good? From what I understand the answer to that questoon is not an unqualified "yes", and in fact some locations have a "chamber tax" that they expect all visitors who are diving to pay - ostensibly to cover "uninsured" divers. You pay even if you have DAN insurance and can prove it with your card!

I am not defending DiveAssure here. In fact, their insurance program is one that I personally do not like, but its not due to any questions about AIGs stability or name recognition - something that simply cannot be questioned when it comes to the world of international finance. Nor is their international underwriting questionable - their international arm is underwritten by Lloyds!

That is the gold-standard of insurance on a world-wide basis.

It is their weasel-words in the policy that bother me.

There are several, and they are important.

As an example, they exclude anything contributed to by the use of alcohol. While we all know that tying one on the night before diving is unwise, with DiveAssure you might void your insurance!

Second, and far more importantly to me, they absolutely bar "underwater fishing".

Since 90% of the dives I do around my home are, indeed, "underwater fishing", they're flat out of the question for me.

Doc, as I said, from my perspective there are plenty of reasons NOT to like DiveAssure in their present form, but the name recognition from a standpoint of who's underwriting them and the assurance that your claim will be paid due to them being a "podunk insurance outfit" in some remote hospital's view isn't one of them. Nobody - not even in East Bufu - is going to question whether AIG or Lloyds will pay; they are the global risk-management outfits.

The real issue is the exclusions and how easily you could "step outside the lines" of their policy. This is the one place where DAN's insurance does excel, in that they are "any depth, any gas, anytime, anywhere" - at least in their "better" policies.

 

[JDostal]

Genesis once bubbled...


The real issue is the exclusions and how easily you could "step outside the lines" of their policy. This is the one place where DAN's insurance does excel, in that they are "any depth, any gas, anytime, anywhere" - at least in their "better" policies.

That's another one of the reasons that I went with DAN Master insurance. I bought the cheapest level of insurance and then was looking at the policy and saw the limit of insurance down to 130 feet....I updgraded to master about five minutes later

 

[DocVikingo]

Absolutely. Even if your dive plans never include exceeding 130', you can't control when events such as a rogue downcurrent, buddy rescue or dropped camera may take you there.

With the Standard policy, when DAN reads out your dive computer and sees a max depth in excess of 130', your claim is in deep do-do.

Best regards.

DocVikingo

 

[JDostal]

That was my thinking exactly. A lot of my dives are close to or exceeding that depth anyway. I figured why buy insurance that is going to be worthless for anything I'll use it for anyway =/

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Genesis once bubbled...


I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that.

You won't be dealing with some front-liner when it comes time to be released from the hospital. You'll be dealing with the finance office - and they are going to be well-versed in who is who in the world of such things.

Payment issues arise for the first time on admission, not release.

The air ambulance doesn't move until payment is assured.

Similarly, overseas hospitals may not treat until payment is assured.

Its just not worth it to have coverage issues when you're bent or otherwise injured.

DAN has the name recognition to get the job done. Even better, my LDS saw them in action on a liveaboard trip. They performed flawlessly.

 

[catgirldiver]

Wow! You guys are great! I this was my first post and you have helped me tremendously. I didn't think I would get a response at all. I was just about to sign up with Diveassure until I got your responses.

Is there anyone out there that has Diveassure for insurance and/or had to use it?

Thanks for all the replies,
Catgirldiver

 

[Genesis]

Read the policy description carefully.

If you do not find anything in there that is troubling to you, then go ahead and do it.

The guy who flies the air ambulance is probably insured by Lloyds, at least for liability (hell, most PRIVATE YACHTS are for their excess liability coverage!) They're the name in such things.

The only issue with DiveAssure is whether the language and exclusions in the policy bother you; those who are trying to play the "DAN DAN DAN dangit!" game are posting slurs that have nothing to do with reality. Reality is that AIG and Lloyds are the "gold standard" on a world-wide basis when it comes to insurance of any kind, and nobody is going to question either when it comes to whether or not they will get paid.

What they will all question, irrespective of carrier, is whether you're actually covered based on the insurance you have. DAN's "cheap" policy has limits that can be easily violated (ex; the depth limit); DiveAssure's has the alcohol issue (but NO depth limit), and also covers trip cancellation if you are unable to dive due to a medical issue. DAN does that on their "Preferred" plan, but their deductable is $250 (DiveAssure's is $100)

DiveAssure does ban mixed-gas diving (other than EANx to a maximum of 40% - planned deco with high FO2 deco gasses is out!), cave diving and rebreathers, along with the one that excludes them for me, "underwater fishing." They also ban diving if you have a condition that you "know about" and which would impact your diving safety - a general way of saying that if a dive physician would say that you shouldn't be in the water, and you're aware of whatever could cause that, you better not go or your insurance is void. They do NOT have a depth limit though, which is good - even in their "cheaper" policy.

Interestingly enough, DiveAssure's policy seems to implicitly sanction "Deep Air" and air-based Deco, as there is no depth limit, but Trimix use is banned! Now that's a bizarre combination - and an unintended consequence I bet they didn't figure on.

DAN's "standard" plan has a depth limit, which you'd think isn't a problem until your buddy has a BC failure and strays below 130' before you can get to him/her! Get bent following that and you might get a $10,000 surprise. Also, DAN does not cover air evac if you're within 50 miles of home - exactly how this plays out if you're on a boat near your home and get bent, requiring an air ambulance, is not clear from their policy. Since that chopper ride could be darn expensive, this could be a big deal if you dive mostly near your home from a boat (as opposed to mostly on vacation.)

Finally, all of these insurance plans I've seen thus far are "secondary" insurance, meaning that unless you have NO health insurance you WILL have a fight with them post-treatment over who is paying for what, and you WILL have to deal with the two insurance companies playing one off the other unless your primary health insurance simply bans ANYTHING diving-related (some do!)

Finally, be aware that nearly all "land" health insurance nowdays require, as a condition of coverage, that you subrogate recovery rights. These cute notices that are given to people with their health insurance descriptions and policies often are not understood by most folks.

What this means is that if you get hurt and they pay any part of your medical expenses they can and will sue everyone and everything involved in the injury in an attempt to recover the payment(s) they made on your behalf, and you are required to cooperate with them, including testifying either by deposition or in court, against your friends and/or the dive operator or your claim will be denied!

How would you like to choose between effectively suing your dive buddy and paying a $10,000 bill on your own? That is exactly the choice you may face! This is an ugly practice that began a number of years ago and which I (somewhat successfully - got it struck twice from the group plans I had for my employees) fought as a small-business owner with my employee health insurance carriers, but it has now (in the last five years) become nearly universal in essentially ALL health-insurance plans in the US.

Blue Cross, one of the last holdouts, added this to most if not all of their policies last fall.

Thank the lawyers for that one - they love it, of course.

 

[JDostal]

Jesus man...chill out a little!

She was just asking an opinion, not a request for a thesis

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Distilling the rhetoric down to something remotely coherent, we find:

DAN

Recognized worldwide
Demonstrable evidence that it is accepted worldwide
Conducts dive related research in addition to providing insurance
Policies are available with no depth, gas or activity restrictions
Provides evacuation insurance if you're more than 50 miles from home
No evidence of defaults in coverage

Diveassure

Less name recognition
No evidence that it is excepted anywhere
No evidence that it conducts any research
Policies contain significant restrictions.
Purportedly underwritten by large carrier
No evidence of payment history

Don't take the ranting too seriously. It happens all the time with some members.

 

[Genesis]

Note that DAN's certificate of insurance also explicitly excludes any injury in which drug or alcohol was used (I'm not a drinker, so it doesn't bother me, but it IS in there, as it is with DiveAssure - and DAN's language is even MORE exclusory than DiveAssure's! Have a beer the night before, your DAN insurance is conceivably void. Have one during your SI, it almost certainly is.)

DAN also appears not to cover "8. nervous, emotional, or mental disorders;", which could conceivably get you after a Type II DCS hit. Their language also appears to exclude an airplane-ride-induced case of DCS (the specific language is "Decompression Illness (DCI) means Decompression Sickness (DCS) or Arterial Gas Embolism (AGE).
Such illness must be a direct result of a Covered Dive.", which could be construed to mean that if the "direct cause" is your boarding that plane.....)

Finally, DAN's certificate of insurance requires that a medevac (e.g. an "air ambulance") be pre-authorized by Dan TravelAssist or it is not reimbursable.

Catgirl (and anyone else looking at this issue!) please make sure you read the certificates of insurance before you sign up. Surprises like this can cost you thousands or more, and essentially all insurance companies have at least a few of them in their policies. The "defenders" of one company over another never seem to bother mentioning the "gotchas" of their favorites, even when they are at least as bad (or maybe even worse) than some of the alternatives.

Reference: http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/preferredcert.pdf