Deep Stops Increases DCS

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commentary on Correlation papers part 2

WARNING, VERY BORING DESCRIPTION OF STATISTICAL METHODS BELOW HERE---

The log-likelihood (LL) is an index that is used to compare the fit of models to the same data set - a higher (less negative) log-likelihood indicates a better fit to the data. Just to explain a bit more, suppose we had an ordered data set of three dive profiles and the outcomes were 1,0,1 (1=DCS and, 0=no-DCS) and we had a model that predicted perfectly, in other words the model predicted the probability of DCS (p) = 1 for the first dive, the probability of no-DCS (q=1-p) = 1 for the second dive and p=1 for the third dive, then the likelihood (not the log-likelihood) for this model is 1x1x1=1, perfect. For numerical reasons it is better to calculate the log-likelihood, which is ln(1)+ln(1)+ln(1)=0, the perfect log-likelihood. No real model does this well, so suppose we had a model that predicted p=0.8 for the first dive, q=0.6 for the second dive, and p=0.7 for the third dive, then the log-likelihood is ln(0.8)+ln(0.6)+ln(0.7) = -1.1. The further the model predictions are away from the observations, the more negative (and further from the perfect zero) the LL becomes. The LL is also dependent on the size of the data set, so can only be used to compare models fit to the same data. So if you have model ‘a’ and model ‘b’ fit to the same data set and LL_a=-100 and LL_b=-110, then model ‘a’ provides better predictions of the data (“fits the data better”) than model ‘b’.

The evaluation example above is informal, based on inspections of the log-likelihoods, and is perfectly valid. However, in certain circumstances, it is possible to formally evaluate if two log-likelihoods are statistically significantly different using log-likelihood ratio tests. These tests have two appropriate uses in evaluation of fitted models. First, and most fundamentally, is the comparison of a fitted model to a ‘saturated’ model. A saturated model has as many parameters as there are distinct patterns in the data of the explanatory variables used in the fitted model, and has the highest log-likelihood that can be achieved by a model that uses the particular explanatory variables. In probabilistic decompression models, the explanatory variables are the dive profiles. So for these data, the saturated model would have as many parameters as there are distinct dive profiles. (Technically, in the Wienke models discussed above, the explanatory variables are the integrals of the hazards since none of the parameters of the underlying biophysical models are fitted, but these integral hazards are calculated from the dive profiles.) 2(LLsaturated-LLfitted), the deviance, indicates how much worse the actual fitted model fits the data than the best possible fit. Under some circumstances, the deviance is chi-square distributed and it is possible to formally test if the deviance (lack of fit) is significant - if it is not significant you have a “good fit”. However, the likelihood of the saturated model cannot be (meaningfully) calculated for data where (most) all the dive profiles are different, as is the case in field collected diving data of this sort. So the deviance is not a meaningful measure of goodness of fit for this type of data. Other methods are usually employed that are based, not on log-likelihoods, but on the differences between observed and predicted incidences (residuals) in more or less arbitrary groupings of the data, and the value of such test statistics, and their validity, varies considerably based on the data grouping. Usually a battery of tests is needed to assess goodness of fit.

The second appropriate use of likelihood ratio tests is to compare two nested models. Two models are nested if the ‘full model’ has all the same parameters and explanatory variables as the ‘reduced model’, plus some more. 2(LLfull-LLreduced) is a measure of improved fit (reduced deviance) of the full model over the reduced model. This statistic is chi-square distributed, and a significant chi-square test indicates the improved fit of the full model justifies the extra parameters. One common use of this test is to the comparison of a fitted model (full) to a null model (reduced). In a null model, the explanatory variables of the fitted model are nulled, that is they do not contribute to the null model. A natural choice of null model for the data in the Comp Biol Med 2010 paper, for instance, is a model with one parameter equal to the observed incidence of DCS (20/2879=0.0069), this model assigns all dives in the data with a probability of DCS equal to 0.0069 and the specifics of dive profile has no influence on risk. This is what the author refers to as the “1 step set” and appears on the third line of table 3 of the (Comp Med Biol 2010 paper). The bare minimum requirement for useful model is to have a higher log-likelihood than the null model, which indeed the author’s models just barely (but significantly) have. The author’s choice of test statistics based on the 6 step sets, although superficially similar, is none of the above.
 
What amazes me is how much time and effort Dr Mitchell puts into dealing with endless, pedantic, arrogant arguing over these matters when, if anything, it costs him money. I suspect that his career as an eminent respected anaesthesiologist and research scientist receives no benefit at all from his efforts here.
For the record, I don't like the way Ross debates and argues, the combativeness etc etc. I also don't agree with him on his opposition to these trials and feel there is a lot that is applicable to us as divers and this bears further investigation. I have already made some prudent (I feel) changes to my deco strategy to maximise my chances of enjoying my diving.
I'm just tired of the ad-hominem attacks all the time and rehashing all the inflammatory nonsense.
^this^
 
There were recently posts that said words to the effect that everyone knows the identities and backgrounds of everyone else in this thread. I sense there is a feeling that participants are in a debate in a special workshop attended only by experts in decompression theory, experts who know each other well. This is ScubaBoard, though, and a wide variety of people are participating in this discussion by reading the posts and trying to understand them. I am sure the bulk are technical divers, but even so, many of them are not familiar with some or all of the participants. Additionally, many cannot understand some of the detailed information being presented here. They are, however, very interested in knowing what kind of dive profiles are most likely to keep them alive, and they are trying to distill that information from this discussion.

I hope everyone will remember that there is a large lay audience reading this thread and trying to make sense of it all. Please remember that audience from time to time in your posts. They will very much appreciate it.
 
He are a few suggestions to your questions|
1). --surfacing bubble volumes across all compartments
we're used in risk function formulations, not separate compartments
nor M-values;
2).-- NULL set means no,fits can be better, nothing more nothing less;
and just a question of terminology;
3) -- these risk functions are used on the fly to compare profiles;
4) -- as stated in paper, no correlation of dissolved gas models
with deep stop.data will ever be seen or expected;
5) -- same would true in reverse if bubble models were correlated
against shallow stop data, also,stated;;
6) -- for the granularity of LANL data, we don't need finer resolution

Best,
BW
PS Thalman paper very nice for dissolved gas LEM and abundant shallow stop data but
Not appropriate for bubble volume models
 
Here are the published version that BRW promised.
 

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commentary on Correlation papers part 2
WARNING, VERY BORING DESCRIPTION OF STATISTICAL METHODS BELOW HERE---.....

You ain't kiddin'! I printed out a copy and began reading it in bed. My wife said she's never seen me fall asleep so quickly. No, just kidding. I did try to read it and had to stop when someone saw smoke comin' out of my ears. Keep up the good work. :D
 
Igor, One point that is probably so obvious to you that you did not mention it in acting as a conduit for Bruce Wienke's notions, is that like Ross, he makes money out of promoting deep stop approaches to decompression. I think that should be on the table before any of his claims are evaluated. Simon M

Really? And why is that important now? Why can't we evaluate his data and if something is wrong or questionable ask him for answers? If the data doesn't square then maybe we can question his motives. Coming from anyone else would be par for SB but coming from you it seems like a sucker punch, especially in the face of all the criticism you've received regarding the NEDU study. :wink:
 
Really? And why is that important now? Why can't we evaluate his data and if something is wrong or questionable ask him for answers? If the data doesn't square then maybe we can question his motives. Coming from anyone else would be par for SB but coming from you it seems like a sucker punch, especially in the face of all the criticism you've received regarding the NEDU study. :wink:
Unfortunately people commenting the Corelation paper think validation can be done only their way and do not understand BRW method of doing it. Read BRW post above.
 
He are a few suggestions to your questions|
1). --surfacing bubble volumes across all compartments
we're used in risk function formulations, not separate compartments
nor M-values;

In the Deep stops model correlation. J. Bioengineering & Biomedical Sci 2015 paper, the risk functions - the first two equations at the top of page 5, column one - include only terms for ambient pressure and total tissue tension and the two estimated weighting parameters.
 
Really? And why is that important now? Why can't we evaluate his data and if something is wrong or questionable ask him for answers? If the data doesn't square then maybe we can question his motives.

As David has just explained at some length (and he is completely correct as others on this forum have independently corroborated) the "data doesn't square". It certainly does not have any relevance to the purpose it is being put to by Igor here (as some sort of counter to the evidence that bubble models over-emphasise deep stops).

In the complex world of science, financial conflicts of interest are recognised as a critically important influence on the way data are gathered, analysed and presented. Such conflicts do not come any more obvious and potentially important than in commentary about safety / efficacy of deep stops by someone who sells a deep stop algorithm. This is a discussion about that issue and so it should be declared. Every time I give a lecture or submit a manuscript for publication I am subject to intense scrutiny (and rightly so) on this issue.

While we are on the subject, if you want a jaw dropping moment, download the Computers in Biology and Medicine article that Igor just posted (CBM-valn.pdf) and scroll down to the conflict of interest statement.

Simon M
 
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