Did the collapse at JB cause you to rethink your approach to caves?
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LiteHedded
Contributor
a good quality hood goes a long way. bounced on my arm off my head. kinda hurt my arm a little
Kevin Carlisle
Contributor
Ahhh, that sounds like what happened to me. However my suit is tough and cushioned the blow to my arm
It has been interesting to read the responses to this thread . . . mostly from full cave divers, I think. I just completed Intro in Feb and my only post class dives have been in JB, in April and then Memorial Day weekend. I am not replacing cave diving with basketweaving or golf, but I have been thinking about the collapse.
Thought I would share a newb perspective, I know, boooring for some of you, but here it is:
Has the possibility of such a collapse altered your approach to cave diving? Yes, in terms of my risk assessment and ways to reduce risk. I came out of class thinking that ignoring accident analysis, my lack of skills/experience and equipment failures would be the cause of an untimely demise in a cave. I accepted that whatever precautions and training I had accumulated in my toolbox so far, was worth the risk.
The collapse had me thinking the following:
In my few hundred feet of penetration that a 6th will allow, I did not think the path back would be blocked or that I would have to disassemble my gear to dig out. I never looked at a map extensively enough to mentally note exits out of my range or that required a jump. Why? It was beyond my training, end of subject. Not brilliant, but it is what it is.
I also asked myself, was the collapse an anomaly or just how the earth works, iow, predictable? The main reason I thought about that is because the first time I went into JB, again, within just a few hundred feet, I was greeted with a massive slab of ceiling laying on the floor of the cave. I looked up at the ceiling and was like holy crap, then was distracted by whatever came into my view next . .
So I chatted with a geologist who earns a living as a geologist, has done dry caving and is a newbie OW diver. Meaning, they have a big clue about rocks/formations and a medium clue about caves and much less of a clue about cave diving, but more knowledgeable than someone without that combination . . .
I will summarize the information exchange (which was extensive and somewhat painful) to how it pertains to JB/high flow caves. From a geologist perspective, dry caves are extinct, wet caves are still forming, but slowly and underwater caves are actively forming. Significant changes in flow, either increase or decrease, will affect the cave structure, not maybe. High Magnesium levels, specific to JB, would not significantly impact the outcome. It is predictable that specific areas experiencing the most flow variance, ie the ceiling above a restricted fissure would be more prone to restructuring. A low flow cave experiencing drought conditions will be less prone to restructuring than a high flow cave experiencing drought conditions, because the relative change in flow is less.
I think the collapse was actually good, in terms of light bulbs going on, making me think much more about the cave environment, water tables, flow variance and the many ways it can affect such a newb diver as myself. Not only about collapses, but other environmental stuff
I do not think in terms of fear or what are the odds I simply think, given all the information I have, what is my threshold of tolerance for the difference between go and no go? I will be incorporating some combo of the following into my future cave diving:
Thought I would share a newb perspective, I know, boooring for some of you, but here it is:
Has the possibility of such a collapse altered your approach to cave diving? Yes, in terms of my risk assessment and ways to reduce risk. I came out of class thinking that ignoring accident analysis, my lack of skills/experience and equipment failures would be the cause of an untimely demise in a cave. I accepted that whatever precautions and training I had accumulated in my toolbox so far, was worth the risk.
The collapse had me thinking the following:
In my few hundred feet of penetration that a 6th will allow, I did not think the path back would be blocked or that I would have to disassemble my gear to dig out. I never looked at a map extensively enough to mentally note exits out of my range or that required a jump. Why? It was beyond my training, end of subject. Not brilliant, but it is what it is.
I also asked myself, was the collapse an anomaly or just how the earth works, iow, predictable? The main reason I thought about that is because the first time I went into JB, again, within just a few hundred feet, I was greeted with a massive slab of ceiling laying on the floor of the cave. I looked up at the ceiling and was like holy crap, then was distracted by whatever came into my view next . .
So I chatted with a geologist who earns a living as a geologist, has done dry caving and is a newbie OW diver. Meaning, they have a big clue about rocks/formations and a medium clue about caves and much less of a clue about cave diving, but more knowledgeable than someone without that combination . . .
I will summarize the information exchange (which was extensive and somewhat painful) to how it pertains to JB/high flow caves. From a geologist perspective, dry caves are extinct, wet caves are still forming, but slowly and underwater caves are actively forming. Significant changes in flow, either increase or decrease, will affect the cave structure, not maybe. High Magnesium levels, specific to JB, would not significantly impact the outcome. It is predictable that specific areas experiencing the most flow variance, ie the ceiling above a restricted fissure would be more prone to restructuring. A low flow cave experiencing drought conditions will be less prone to restructuring than a high flow cave experiencing drought conditions, because the relative change in flow is less.
I think the collapse was actually good, in terms of light bulbs going on, making me think much more about the cave environment, water tables, flow variance and the many ways it can affect such a newb diver as myself. Not only about collapses, but other environmental stuff
I do not think in terms of fear or what are the odds I simply think, given all the information I have, what is my threshold of tolerance for the difference between go and no go? I will be incorporating some combo of the following into my future cave diving:
- Get additional training, quicker than I originally planned. The advanced skills I once viewed as nice to have are looking more like lifelines.
- Dive with instructors/mentors who have dived the alternate exits
- Review cave surveys for alternate exits
- Select caves with lesser flow variance
OP
July 4th a year ago I had a life threatening IPE in JB and my symptoms began at the bottom of this chimney just a few moments after I descended. I have slowly worked my way back into diving over the past year starting with OW shore diving, springs, then caverns, then back to at least an p800ft, even going back by this same spot where it occurred and beyond.
Almost exactly a year later, either the 5th or 6th of July of this year, at the same spot in the cave, there is a collapse. I wasn't in this cave July 4th weekend but I was at Madison diving with one of the buddies I was with when the IPE happened and this was the first time we had been diving together since last July 4th weekend.
I am not a superstitious person but that is freaky to me. It wasn't so much the collapse, but everything lining up like it did. Neither occurrence was something any diver could control. Like Drydiver said, you think you can rely on your training, your experience, your planning, your equipment, your redundancy, your buddy. We like to think we are in control of a situation. Both of these are instances when we are not.
Almost exactly a year later, either the 5th or 6th of July of this year, at the same spot in the cave, there is a collapse. I wasn't in this cave July 4th weekend but I was at Madison diving with one of the buddies I was with when the IPE happened and this was the first time we had been diving together since last July 4th weekend.
I am not a superstitious person but that is freaky to me. It wasn't so much the collapse, but everything lining up like it did. Neither occurrence was something any diver could control. Like Drydiver said, you think you can rely on your training, your experience, your planning, your equipment, your redundancy, your buddy. We like to think we are in control of a situation. Both of these are instances when we are not.
kalliherra
Registered
The collapse did not change my thinking about diving the caves, but a comment one of my diveparters made has. In referring to the collaps, his approach has been to look at a cave and try to visualize an alternate route out. Exploers spend countless hours looking for a path, but once found and laid out there are fewer attempts at finding additional routs.
Looking at a restriction and thinking if it was unavailable where would you look to go to find the line again.
Looking at a restriction and thinking if it was unavailable where would you look to go to find the line again.
Now that is funny!
Since July 4th, 2010, I have made many cave dives, including 3 adv rec trimix dives to 160ft at lower Orange Grove with no issues. And yet there are still divers willing to play with me. Russian Roulette...how popular is that 
I will add this to the thread...
Being on the cave side of a collapse and surviving, makes one rethink the activity. Once you have been given that fork in the road, you must choose one of the only two choices presented : Stop cavediving or cave dive with greater respect and more experience.
I chose option 2. It was not an easy decision and I have only been back to the offending cave one time since the incident several years ago. I have marked that cave "off the list", since there are many others that have not directly tried to kill me. It was not an easy thing to get past the mental nagging that came after that incident, but at this point I only get a heightened sense of cave awareness which I never consider a bad thing.
Being on the cave side of a collapse and surviving, makes one rethink the activity. Once you have been given that fork in the road, you must choose one of the only two choices presented : Stop cavediving or cave dive with greater respect and more experience.
I chose option 2. It was not an easy decision and I have only been back to the offending cave one time since the incident several years ago. I have marked that cave "off the list", since there are many others that have not directly tried to kill me. It was not an easy thing to get past the mental nagging that came after that incident, but at this point I only get a heightened sense of cave awareness which I never consider a bad thing.
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