Dive buddy for air? No thanks.

[DaleC]

Good sensible buddy brief:

"If help is needed i will TRY to assist. However, do NOT rely on me to get you out of trouble and i am not relying on you to get me out of trouble".

If I had a buddy tell me that in a pre dive breifing I would immediately switch gears to same ocean solo mode and advise him/her of it.

 

[hawksbill]

This OOA thing does happen. Practice and know that you can do an emergency out of air ascent, it builds confidence but hopefully you will never need it. Once I discovered the hard way that this is very doable even from 70 foot. I reccomend a small pony bottle 6-30 ft3 depending on your needs and situation but admit that I almost never use one for recreational diving. I need to be self sufficient to the point of not relying on a buddy to save me in case they cant and I wont let that happen. Mount your pony however you want and use a regulator necklace on it so you find it right away no matter your situation. Its comfortably right where you can reach it with either hand or even without. I dive independant doubles similarly with the left reg on a neclace made of surgical tubing. It is reassuring to know at any second that the emergency air is already about 6 inches from my mouth. Hearing of problems with spare air I would prefer to stick with standard tank and reg.

 

[slackercruster]

Ok, got your attention

My question is if you were starting from scratch designing a protocol to address the out of air diver would it make sense to use your dive buddy?

The concept of redundancy for critical equipment in recreational diving breaks down with the rubber O-ring.

So, why not use a truly redundant system for recreational diving?

I do use redundancy when I have the opportunity. I use a 13 CF pony for my recreational needs. I don't take one on plane trips though but sometimes wish I did for insurance.

The O ring worries seem to be very rare though.

 

[CycloneFever]

OK, I'm a newb but I have a question about a backup strategy. How about the old fashioned J valve? Is the operation just not reliable enough?

 

[TSandM]

The J valves were very unreliable. They were easily dislodged, and the diver who breathed his last breath all too often found, when he went to access his reserve, that it wasn't there any more. (Disclaimer: I never dove J-valves, but my husband did, and has told me these stories.)

 

[String]

If I had a buddy tell me that in a pre dive breifing I would immediately switch gears to same ocean solo mode and advise him/her of it.

EVERYONE diving should be self sufficient and not blindly rely on a buddy. If a buddy is there and can help all well and good but you shouldn't get in the water knowing if things went wrong you'd HAVE to rely on them to get you out.

 

[tna9001]

as others have said, most all of the out of air emergencies are caused by diver error, NOT gear failure. If this is not uncommon and results in fatalities on a regular basis, why should we assume that the OTHER buddy has not also run his tank way down as well?

I had an incident when my friend and I were diving a very loose buddy system while spearing fish. He came flying up to me, signaling for air and he used my octopus. As we immediately began our ascent from around 90 feet, I checked my air and was comforted to know I had about 900 lbs in an 80 tank.

We made a controlled ascent with no stops. I was very calm and breathing slowly and he never did slow his frantic breathing. I kinda thought it was funny that his eyes were bugging out so far and that he screwed up so badly. By the time we hit the surface, I was amazed to find my tank on "E". I couldn't believe that he could suck that much air in his borderline panic mode. This incident taught me a lot about how dangerous a buddy is and that you need to reserve a lot more air if you dive with other people and no pony bottle.

My point is that if divers are so badly trained (or disciplined) that they will suck their own tanks dry on the bottom, how is it reasonable to assume that they will be watching the other guy's tank also? For people that have a tendency to run out of air, depending on the buddy system for redundancy seems ridiculous. For these types of people, the buddy system seems worhtless, at best.

The other point is that, if neither diver is carrying their own redundancy, then they have to reserve a LOT more air in their primary tank to help their idiot" buddy get to the surface (as in my example). I personally would rather resrve ONLY enough gas in the primary tank for me (and me alone) to ascend and assume that if problems develop, then either diver can use their own pony as a source to ascend. This is for recreational type dives, of course.

Exactly!

If the training standards change the procedures have to change to reflect reality.

How many dives a year does the average diver do?

Does anyone really think a diver who dives only when they go on vacation would be able get to their buddy, find his air and get to the surface without endangering himself or his buddy?

 

[String]

People also generally dont practice OOA ascents at all after qualification. They do something maybe twice on a course then never do it again and only dive 3-4 times a year on a holiday. I've seen the result many times of this - even when you just ask them to practice an ascent they get together, mess up grips, mess up control, mess up reg routing and completely mess up the ascent.

Rescue skills unfortunately are seldom practiced after a course and are quickly forgotten like anything else that is done a few times then never again. That's the reality so people should be ready for that. Another reason for taking your own redundancy.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"Does anyone really think a diver who dives only when they go on vacation would be able get to their buddy, find his air and get to the surface without endangering himself or his buddy?"

You seem focused on the air issue.

Using another diver's octopus, even for someone who hasn't done it in awhile, is not quite as challenging as say, driving a car safely. When was the last time you rode a bike? If you got on one today, would you be able to ride it?

As Peter (and other posters) mentioned quite a few posts ago, the concept of diving in a team brings more to the equation than only additional air - which is all a redundant bottle brings, except for the added expense and inconvenience involved in buying, transporting, and maintaining it.

Aside from simply another team mate to share the experience with, the team mate can provide assistance with entanglements, entrapments inside wrecks, medical issues ranging from immobilizing leg cramps to stings to coral burns to heart attacks, and if swept away by currents a team is easier to recover than a single diver.

A team can calm things down, provide two brains, two sets of tools, and a two-person effort to overcome adversity - which can occur in many different forms.

If you want to conclude that "it's all on me", and hang a sling tank off your rig while you declare yourself secure, fine, have at it.

But to narrow the discussion down to air alone, then declare a team mate unreliable, ergo the entire team concept is flawed, is Reductio ad Absurdum logic.

And read String's proposition carefully:

"EVERYONE diving should be self sufficient and not blindly rely on a buddy. If a buddy is there and can help all well and good but you shouldn't get in the water knowing if things went wrong you'd HAVE to rely on them to get you out."

Key word is "blindly".

Anyone who has ever participated in an expedition, mountaineering, caving, whatever, or has deployed as a team member in a military unit would recognize this concept.

You select your team mates with care, not "blindly". You recognize and are aware of their capabilities and status. You rely on them to the extent that if a team mate fails, the entire team may fail, but you realize that they are mortal and the primary responsibility is your own. The team will do what it can, but in the gravest extreme their efforts may be inadequate to save you. But the fact remains that they will do what they can.

Every diver ought to be entirely self-sufficient, few would disagree. Nevertheless, diving as a team - not 'blindly' relying on team mates - offers benefits that hanging a sling tank off your rig does not.

And in terms of gas alone, the proper approach remains to create a gas plan before each dive, and then dive your plan during the dive. The best way to deal with an emergency is to ensure that one doesn't happen in the first place.

I disagree with your proposition, but I wish you many years of safe diving - however you choose to do it.

Doc

 

[tna9001]

You seem focused on the air issue.

Using another diver's octopus, even for someone who hasn't done it in awhile, is not quite as challenging as say, driving a car safely. When was the last time you rode a bike? If you got on one today, would you be able to ride it?

As Peter (and other posters) mentioned quite a few posts ago, the concept of diving in a team brings more to the equation than only additional air - which is all a redundant bottle brings, except for the added expense and inconvenience involved in buying, transporting, and maintaining it.

Aside from simply another team mate to share the experience with, the team mate can provide assistance with entanglements, entrapments inside wrecks, medical issues ranging from immobilizing leg cramps to stings to coral burns to heart attacks, and if swept away by currents a team is easier to recover than a single diver.

A team can calm things down, provide two brains, two sets of tools, and a two-person effort to overcome adversity - which can occur in many different forms.

If you want to conclude that "it's all on me", and hang a sling tank off your rig while you declare yourself secure, fine, have at it.

But to narrow the discussion down to air alone, then declare a team mate unreliable, ergo the entire team concept is flawed, is Reductio ad Absurdum logic.

And read String's proposition carefully:

Key word is "blindly".

Anyone who has ever participated in an expedition, mountaineering, caving, whatever, or has deployed as a team member in a military unit would recognize this concept.

You select your team mates with care, not "blindly". You recognize and are aware of their capabilities and status. You rely on them to the extent that if a team mate fails, the entire team may fail, but you realize that they are mortal and the primary responsibility is your own. The team will do what it can, but in the gravest extreme their efforts may be inadequate to save you. But the fact remains that they will do what they can.

Every diver ought to be entirely self-sufficient, few would disagree. Nevertheless, diving as a team - not 'blindly' relying on team mates - offers benefits that hanging a sling tank off your rig does not.

And in terms of gas alone, the proper approach remains to create a gas plan before each dive, and then dive your plan during the dive. The best way to deal with an emergency is to ensure that one doesn't happen in the first place.

I disagree with your proposition, but I wish you many years of safe diving - however you choose to do it.

Doc

Hello, Doc.

I completely agree with you, having a buddy in the water is invaluable. I'm not focused on air, I'm learning about the sport from the perspective of becoming an instructor and I think the standard for dealing with OOA emergency is flawed.

Would you agree that much of recreational divings safety record is due to the reliability and ease of use of modern diving equipment?

Most OOA emergencies are easily solved with redundant air.

Most diving accidents are caused by diver error, this tells me that the training is inadequate and Instructors expectations of their students are unrealistic.

I'm sure most instructors would prefer to have more time with their students before signing them off but that's a different discussion.

Requiring each diver to have two independent air sources just makes sense. It surely does not compromise the team it enhances it.

If you look at the current configuration standard, all that's needed is 1 more 1st stage and a small tank. All the diver would have to know if he runs out of air is: Find your secondary which should be easily accessible and start your accent. It can not get any easier or safer than that.

Thank you for your input,

Tyler