Diver vs DM Responsibilities

[Scared Silly]

I find it hard to believe that anyone using an AL 80 can get 20 minutes of deco before running out of air during the dive, let alone having enough gas to do the deco.

The one exception would be if the person had a Suunto (or similar computer) with all the settings at the most conservative. I once used a Suunto Cobra (air integrated) as an air pressure indicator only, using a wrist computer to guide the actual dive. During a dive (the second of the day) I realized that the last time I had used the Cobra as a computer had been in Colorado, and i was now at sea level. I still had the setting set for high altitude, and, sure enough, it had me in deco while I still had plenty of NDL time left on the wrist computer.

This happened to my wife during a trip to Costa Rica. It was a PITA. It was the third dive of the second day after a 84 min SI. The dive was a moderate dive, average depth was 60ft (max 72ft). At 30 minutes she hit deco. She ascended to 30 ft for 10 minutes, then 15 ft for another 10 minutes. It still had not cleared. I can not remember why but we exited the water I think because we were live boating in a current but her computer locked up with 15-20 min to clear. As we had dove together and my computer the exact same type was doing as expected we were comfortable with that decision. Also these were new computers with less than 10 dives on them so we were thinking perhaps an issue. Once back to shore we figured out the issue. Our mistake and it has not happened again.

As for the topic at hand. The divers are responsible for knowing their equipment including their computer. They should be paying attention. If they did not want to be in deco there is a solution - ascend.

We have done multiple trips to Truk Lagoon where it is very easy to accumulate a few minutes of deco (<5 minutes) after days of multiple (4) dives that are often deep >100ft. It was very easy to manage. We had a "rule" not more the 5 minutes and then we would ascend to shallower depths. At shallower depths we could still explore the wrecks while decompressing. By the time we reached a safety stop our deco had already cleared. At which point we exit the water.

 

[Cowfish Aesthetic]

Also these were new computers with less than 10 dives on them so we were thinking perhaps an issue. Once back to shore we figured out the issue.

What was the issue?

 

[Scared Silly]

What was the issue?

Same thing that BoulderJohn had happen and what I quoted. We were previously diving at altitude and forgot to change the setting (which makes the algorithm more conservative). Our mistake.

 

[boulderjohn]

We have done multiple trips to Truk Lagoon where it is very easy to accumulate a few minutes of deco (<5 minutes)

I made a similar mistake when I dived Truk lagoon--I did not realize it, but the settings on my Cobra were at P1 rather than P0. I have no idea how that happened--I would never have done that intentionally. I was constantly hitting deco before everyone else, but not ridiculously so.

Here is the point of this post:

With that overly conservative setting, I only hit 20 minutes of deco one time. It was on the San Francisco Maru. My maximum depth on that dive was 181 feet, with 15 minutes spent on the ship at depths between 150-181. That was at the end of a week of diving at or past NDLs 4-5 dives a day. I was diving with a very much overfilled steel LP 108, which means I had about 140 cubic feet of gas for the dive. I had plenty in my tank, and there were other tanks hanging there for me if I needed more.

That is what it took for me to accumulate 20 minutes of deco on that trip. My buddy on all dives of that trip was done with his deco at least 10 minutes before me.

I find it extremely hard to believe that someone diving an AL 80 could accumulate 20 minutes of deco and still have the gas to do it.

 

[gcarter]

I probably should not ask this question on here, but I just can not help but want a 3rd, 4th 10th opinion on this.

This will be a hornets nest for this forum I am certain...

Scenario: Diver with less than 100 dives. Dives exclusively with the same divemaster each trip. Her husband is a much more experienced diver. Everyone using computers.

Note: I was not there....

Day 1, dive #2, she tells me this: “I ended up in deco and spent 20 minutes at safety stop. Ugh”

After talking to her a while, more comes out her 2nd day of scuba:

Day 2 Dive 1: “The final five of us did it on the first dive today”

Day 2, Dive: “The second dive I was the only one and no one knows quite why I couldn't believe how long I stayed at 15'”

============

There is so much wrong here I do not know where to begin…

1. As her DM, do you make her stay out of the water for 24 hours based on that 20 min deco stop? (translation: fall back to the PADI dive tables rules)

2. Day two, dive #1, five divers go into deco? Then go on a 2nd dive an hour later? Is this DM irresponsibility? I would have benched them all.

3. Day two, dive 2, she has now deco’d 3x in a row…. Seriously, this is unreal to me as I have almost 30 yrs of scuba and never deco’d…

I understand that the ultimate responsibility for your own safety depends on you. But there are so many divers that rely on the DM to keep them safe (I never have). I personally have no problem telling a guide that I am low on time/air… Basically that I can’t go see what he wants to show me because I would exceed time and depth limits…

So what would you do as the DM? What rules apply – computer vs tables? I would have applied tables rules. To me, this has fail written all over it from both the diver and divemaster perspective. She for exceeding the limits, the DM for letting her continue. She is lucky she did not end up in a chamber, and I told her that...

Maybe the DM should have a policy to forewarn divers exceeding limits will sit out on subsequent dives...

Not enough info surrounding the reasons for going into deco, the involvement of the DM in that, the degree to which the diver was doing something without the knowledge of the DM, the state of the available gas, etc. Going into deco is not a problem in and of itself so long as you have sufficient gas and fulfill your deco obligations. What you have described could be an example of unsafe diving, but it is not necessarily and you have not given enough information to tell one way of the other.

What was the intended role of the DM? Most dives I have been done with DMs in the water, they provide navigation services on unfamiliar sites, that's it. I am not on a training dive. What rules were laid out up front? Tell me what time to be back on the boat. If I get back with a reasonable reserve and on time, so long as the boat captain has not decreed that the dives must be no deco, I really don't care if the DM doesn't like my profile.

 

[boulderjohn]

What was the intended role of the DM? Most dives I have been done with DMs in the water, they provide navigation services on unfamiliar sites, that's it.

Are you sure?

I served as a DM on such a dive exactly once in my life--filling in for a crew member who got sick and could not attend a dive in Ste. Maarten. I had been a customer with that shop for a week, I had my insurance card with me, and I filled in at the last minute. It was a very well-attended dive--a shark dive for which they were well known. If you would have been on that dive, you would have seen me in the role of a navigator--getting the people to the site of the dive and getting them back to the boat when it was done. That's it.

My briefing for what I was to do was very different. On those trips to and from the boat, I was very much to be aware of any divers having any problems, and I was to jump in immediately if I saw any such a sign. I was very much on the alert for that. Nobody had any problems, so all anyone ever saw me do was take care of navigation. If someone had had a problem, they would have seen me in a very different role.

 

[Kimela]

It sounds like this gal is doing what I did when I first started diving - just "going with the pack", assuming that if they're ok (and I'm going where they're going) then I'm ok. My dive buddy (husband) was a great role model for me. When he started to hit the limits on his depth/air/deco he'd just go up a few feet. At first I was impatient and irritated (especially since my air consumption was much better than his - he's caught up with me since). But he was totally right. We are each responsible for ourselves. If the pack is on the bottom watching an octopus and my computer says "no" then I have to skip the octopus. Too bad, so sad. But I get the chance to see it on another day. She needs to own responsibility for herself, and have the courage to act in a way that preserves her safety.

 

[gcarter]

Are you sure?

I served as a DM on such a dive exactly once in my life--filling in for a crew member who got sick and could not attend a dive in Ste. Maarten. I had been a customer with that shop for a week, I had my insurance card with me, and I filled in at the last minute. It was a very well-attended dive--a shark dive for which they were well known. If you would have been on that dive, you would have seen me in the role of a navigator--getting the people to the site of the dive and getting them back to the boat when it was done. That's it.

My briefing for what I was to do was very different. On those trips to and from the boat, I was very much to be aware of any divers having any problems, and I was to jump in immediately if I saw any such a sign. I was very much on the alert for that. Nobody had any problems, so all anyone ever saw me do was take care of navigation. If someone had had a problem, they would have seen me in a very different role.

On the majority of the dives I have done with DMs, yes, I am sure. On others the DM may have had a different idea in their head, but if a limit is not agreed up front you will quickly lose a customer if you try to change the rules on me mid-stream and I will vociferously demand a refund. The boat rules are what I will follow, not the arbitrary whims of a DM navigator. Most boat diving I have done has been with "water taxis" where you manage your own dives. The boat captain sets the rules

For the record, I do not make a practice of going into deco or of deviating from the agreed dive plan in any meaningful way. It has happened once in > 300 dives - long drift dive mid channel in the St Lawrence where the current was running slower than normal. We chose to stay near the bottom @ ~100 ffw for ease of navigation as we approached the island we would be surfacing next to, and incurred a 5 minute deco. Gas was not an issue, I ended the dive at ~ 1,000 psi on my HP117. My buddy finished with about the same in his HP100. We could have come up at any time. No DM involved.

 

[gcarter]

Are you sure?

I served as a DM on such a dive exactly once in my life--filling in for a crew member who got sick and could not attend a dive in Ste. Maarten. I had been a customer with that shop for a week, I had my insurance card with me, and I filled in at the last minute. It was a very well-attended dive--a shark dive for which they were well known. If you would have been on that dive, you would have seen me in the role of a navigator--getting the people to the site of the dive and getting them back to the boat when it was done. That's it.

My briefing for what I was to do was very different. On those trips to and from the boat, I was very much to be aware of any divers having any problems, and I was to jump in immediately if I saw any such a sign. I was very much on the alert for that. Nobody had any problems, so all anyone ever saw me do was take care of navigation. If someone had had a problem, they would have seen me in a very different role.

Just to add - being asked to jump in if a problem were to arise is not the same as being in any way responsible for or in control of my decisions. It comes back to the same thing for me - set the rules out up front, and beyond that I will do my dive, not your business.

 

[gcarter]

It sounds like this gal is doing what I did when I first started diving - just "going with the pack", assuming that if they're ok (and I'm going where they're going) then I'm ok. My dive buddy (husband) was a great role model for me. When he started to hit the limits on his depth/air/deco he'd just go up a few feet. At first I was impatient and irritated (especially since my air consumption was much better than his - he's caught up with me since). But he was totally right. We are each responsible for ourselves. If the pack is on the bottom watching an octopus and my computer says "no" then I have to skip the octopus. Too bad, so sad. But I get the chance to see it on another day. She needs to own responsibility for herself, and have the courage to act in a way that preserves her safety.

I have on many occasions come up in the water column relative to the rest of the pack due to my management of my NDL and my gas. My safety, my decision, my responsibility.