Extra Lead

[mweitz]

I don't think this will help too much, but I want to go on record.

Instructors in Monterey. Please take it easy with the lead and try to get the students to understand weighting. I understand that it is a lot easier to conduct an OW class if the students are a bit negative, but there were a lot of people out there today (students and regular divers) that were pathetically overweighted, and it really was dangerous.

For those of you that were out there, I know that there was a lot more to today then a bit of lead, but let's start there.

EDIT: If you already do, thank you!

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Bob3]

Sadly, overweighting is pretty much the norm. I *might* be able to excuse it for the first 1 or 2 pool sessions but the students really deserve better.
I hear that "optimal weighting" is an extra specialty class that's offered by some agency or another.
Overweighting is also one of my pet peeves if ya haven't noticed. :wtf:

 

[HaoleDiver]

While I agree that all divers should learn early on about optinal weighting, and try to be at their ppb at all times, the sad reality of open water classes is that even if a student understands weights, how they work, how much should be worn, they're still wearing unfamiliar gear, they're still nervous, they're still getting used to breathing underwater and what that does to buoyancy.
It took me time to get my weighting down correctly, and that was after 20-30 dives, trying different setups, and even now, it changes depending on how I'm feeling, what I'm wearing, so to try to rush students into the same realm is more dangerous. I for one would rather have a student slightly bouncing on the bottom than jetting to the top as they learn about their gear inflation. Sadly, breakwater is abused because of this, and it shows, but I think that getting the kinks out safely at Breakwater benefits the diver and the environment in the long run.
I see a lot of lead every weekend helping classes, and some students wear almost 3x the weight I wear (and I'm not a small guy), its just part of open water. I did it once as a student, I'll bet most divers did.
A student knowing about optimal weighting and a student being able to perform with it are too vastly different and temporally-segregated things. If anything, rushing students to perform under conditions they are not used to is even more dangerous than a student wearing a few more pounds. Having a student descend slowly to the bottom - even if as a result of a few extra pounds in their pockets - is paid back triplefold by a comfortable, excited student underwater.

 

[Brian Gilpin]

While I agree that all divers should learn early on about optinal weighting, and try to be at their ppb at all times, the sad reality of open water classes is that even if a student understands weights, how they work, how much should be worn, they're still wearing unfamiliar gear, they're still nervous, they're still getting used to breathing underwater and what that does to buoyancy.
It took me time to get my weighting down correctly, and that was after 20-30 dives, trying different setups, and even now, it changes depending on how I'm feeling, what I'm wearing, so to try to rush students into the same realm is more dangerous. I for one would rather have a student slightly bouncing on the bottom than jetting to the top as they learn about their gear inflation. Sadly, breakwater is abused because of this, and it shows, but I think that getting the kinks out safely at Breakwater benefits the diver and the environment in the long run.
I see a lot of lead every weekend helping classes, and some students wear almost 3x the weight I wear (and I'm not a small guy), its just part of open water. I did it once as a student, I'll bet most divers did.
A student knowing about optimal weighting and a student being able to perform with it are too vastly different and temporally-segregated things. If anything, rushing students to perform under conditions they are not used to is even more dangerous than a student wearing a few more pounds. Having a student descend slowly to the bottom - even if as a result of a few extra pounds in their pockets - is paid back triplefold by a comfortable, excited student underwater.

I agree for the most part. The thing is though that at some point an actual buoyancy check could be done.I have spent my share of time with classes at Breakwater as a student, an observer and a divemaster. I had to come to SB after all that to learn the right way to do a buoyancy check- at the end of dive with minimal air left. I have never seen one done in an OW class. When exactly is all this supposed to get sorted out?

 

[mweitz]

While I agree that all divers should learn early on about optinal weighting, and try to be at their ppb at all times, the sad reality of open water classes is that even if a student understands weights, how they work, how much should be worn, they're still wearing unfamiliar gear, they're still nervous, they're still getting used to breathing underwater and what that does to buoyancy.
It took me time to get my weighting down correctly, and that was after 20-30 dives, trying different setups, and even now, it changes depending on how I'm feeling, what I'm wearing, so to try to rush students into the same realm is more dangerous. I for one would rather have a student slightly bouncing on the bottom than jetting to the top as they learn about their gear inflation. Sadly, breakwater is abused because of this, and it shows, but I think that getting the kinks out safely at Breakwater benefits the diver and the environment in the long run.
I see a lot of lead every weekend helping classes, and some students wear almost 3x the weight I wear (and I'm not a small guy), its just part of open water. I did it once as a student, I'll bet most divers did.
A student knowing about optimal weighting and a student being able to perform with it are too vastly different and temporally-segregated things. If anything, rushing students to perform under conditions they are not used to is even more dangerous than a student wearing a few more pounds. Having a student descend slowly to the bottom - even if as a result of a few extra pounds in their pockets - is paid back triplefold by a comfortable, excited student underwater.

If you read my post you'll see that I don't have an issue with people being slightly negative.

I'm talking about so much lead that the person can't stand back up if they fall down, and two fairly large guys can't pick her up

Mark

 

[HaoleDiver]

If you read my post you'll see that I don't have an issue with people being slightly negative.

I'm talking about so much lead that the person can't stand back up if they fall down, and two fairly large guys can't pick her up

Mark

Unfortunately, sometimes the amount of lead that holds someone down on land is only enough to make them slightly negative in the ocean.
Fortunately, I have seen that if a DM/Instructor pays attention and everything goes as planned, and the student is doing well, many can be close to their optimal buoyancy near the end of the weekend.

 

[mweitz]

Haole,

I don't think you are getting it. Were you one of the 5 people that I dragged out yesterday? If so, you may want to reconsider your weighting. If not, I don't think you have anything more to say on the subject.

EDIT: If you need so much lead that you can't stand up with it, you simply shouldn't be shore diving.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Brian Gilpin]

Mark:

Before you criticize HaoleDiver you might want to walk a mile in his shoes. He sounds like a conscientious professional to me. New divers are notoriously hard to sink and yes this does lead to other problems.

Five in one day? I can usually spot at least one diver in trouble but five is too much fun for one individual.I cannot help but be amused by the spectacle at BW. I have often thought the rescue classes should wait offshore for actual distressed divers instead of using simulations.

 

[mweitz]

No, I'm not, just a bit frustrated.

I simply don't believe that people need 20% to 25% of their bodyweight to sink. I do believe that it is a LOT easier to overweight people and just leave it at that. I don't think that Haole is doing that, I am just not sure if they are seeing the point of my message.

The simple point is don't grossly overweight them. If you do overweight them, just expain to them that they are overweighted and what to do about it.



Mark

 

[Mike Matthews]

So how much lead does everyone use? I generally dive wearing about 25 lbs but I recently lost a fair amount of wieght so I will need to reasses this. I am 6ft 2 inches, use a 6.5mm wet suit, and always use an 80.