Fantome shipwreck artifacts

[micahjt]

Greetings all,

Here is the story....

I've been in contact with a friend who has come into possession of some artifacts from the shipwreck of the Barefoot Windjammer Fantome.

http://www.fortogden.com/fantommiamiherald.html


These items were washed ashore on an island in the vacinity of where the wreck was thought to have gone down. This person is interested in selling and/or auctioning these items to raise some money for a charity. I told my friend that I would do some research and see what I could come up with. I've been in contact with Barefoot Cruises and several other parties and they have expressed interested in purchasing these items.

Obviously, these items hold some historic value, although the wreck itself is fairly recent. Several books have been written about the incident. The wreck has never been found. A few items were found by authorities searching the area immediately after the storm. I believe two liferafts and eight life jackets were all that were ever recovered by authorities. The items in question that my friend has possession of are the Barefoot flag (5' X 8') that was flying on the ship and at least one life jacket that I know of.

The part that I'm having trouble with is what kind of monetary value these items have. I would be interested in locating an appraiser that might have experience with such things but I'm having trouble locating anyone. One option is to put the items up on E-Bay and roll the dice but I would think that there would be a better formum for such things.

Any advice or perhaps someone can put me in contact with folks that may have experience with such things. I'd certainly like to see my friend make the most of the situation for her charity, which is very deserving.

 

[Doc]

Personally, I am appalled.

When the ship went down we contacted locals by posting notices and advising harbormasters that flotsam was to be considered on the same level as any forensic evidence. It was, by order of the Govt of Honduras, though the authority of Roatan's Offices, to be secured and turned over to officials for examination. Pursuit of an alternative disposal when one is now aware could be construed as a misprison of a felony under Honduran Code.

I would suppose that the desire by the owners to have the pieces is in furtherance of their direction to our staff to incinerate the accumulated pieces some four years after the fact.

I wrote previously:

I was asked by my contacts in the Government of Honduras to coordinate and lead their search for the ship. This effort began on my arrival in Honduras on 1 Nov., 1998.

With the assistance of the British Navy's HMS Sheffield we examined and dove on several "new" objects that they found on the bottom. Unfortunately, the waters were dark with run-off and "new" only meant that these soundings were not on established charts of the area. We dove from Oak Ridge to past Guanaja, then South to the Bay of Trujillo. I saw experienced divers become seriously affected by the ordeal. I click on the website that I show below and I begin sobbing, now eight years later. The Sheffield at some point declined further assistance as the threats of lawsuits loomed on the horizon. No hard feelings, brothers. She will be found one day when the US Navy does their field training exercises with submarines in the locale. It will be on their laundry list of "things to do" while in the area.

In that this is in the Wreck Diving section, I will add that diving on a fresh wreck is nothing like what we know in the recreational industry. There is usually zero viz or very limited, and there is serious risk of entanglement or injury. If there are crew still aboard it is a daunting mental task. You hallucinate, you freak, you get sick- there isn't a strong human, man or woman who can walk through it unscathed.

She let off her passengers in Belize City and was ordered out of that Harbor (This is a standard practice, know that- it happend to liveaboards, too) One does not hide a 300' steel hulled apartment building easily. He could have flooded her on the S side of Roatan in the shallows and laid to. Pure conjecture.

You would have to understand the geography (look at a map). He was running East, then he was planning to hook South around the Cape of Honduras. All this close to the South side of Roatan, a large long windblock from Mitch which lingered, building to incredible intesity- to the North. All huricanes move NorthWest. All of them.

Except Mitch.

Just as the SV Fantome was clearing the Eastern reaches of Roatan, Mitch dove South and descended upon Guanaja. Just South of Bonacca Key, the residents could not know nor could they worry about the Fantome- they were in survival mode themselves. The storm then stopped dead and battered the small population center ferociously and with no mercy. It sat there for three days. Only two related deaths, but still to this day, deep psychological wounds remain in the children. Then it continued South to liquefy the mainland. That is where the 12,000 death occured. Katrina was a kitten. It meandered across Central America... then North finally exiting to the sea off the Yucatan. It took one more wobbling shot North East as it gained strength and narrowly missed growing to a strength that would have also devastated Florida or Cuba. It wouldn't die. It wouldn't go North West.

She lies deep off SE of Guanaja, at least if the wash patterns of the flotsam can be used as an indicator. We surmise that the self inflating rafts were lashed, and she went down so fast that by the time they inflated, she was too deep for the pressurized tanks to be of much value in flotation when triggered. In the maelstrom of the moment, it was not an issue of whether they could have saved any lives- they were useless in any case.

I did, on my exit flight aboard the CASA equipment provided for service by TACA from my hop from Roatan to Belize City... I looked down from 1500 feet and did see an (empty) life raft from her floating off of the Government Dock, maybe 30 days after she went down.

31 crewmen were lost that day, 1630 hrs, 27 Oct., 1998. I met the sister of the First Mate some 10 days after that. Her husband, a physician, didn't need to translate in English why she insisted on giving me her brother's picture. She carried a Fantome stenciled life jacket that bore evidence of having been worn but wrenched from the owner. We never found a one of them, but I still wear their name on a band on my wrist. The sea has claimed them. I will bring a few bits of her up from Roatan to the Maritime Sailor's Cathedral & Museum in the near future.

If you are hell bent on this ghoulish endeavor replete with the cutesy pirate smiley, may I suggest a charity? The wives and children of the lost crew.

 

[micahjt]

Whooaaa Roatan Man

 

[micahjt]

Personally, I am appalled. I guess your entitled to an opinion. I'm certainly not appalled as I find nothing to be appalled about.

When the ship went down we contacted locals by posting notices and advising harbormasters that flotsam was to be considered on the same level as any forensic evidence.Typical reaction to any loss of a ship where thers is debris. It was, by order of the Govt of Honduras, though the authority of Roatan's Offices, to be secured and turned over to officials for examination. Pursuit of an alternative disposal when one is now aware could be construed as a misprison of a felony under Honduran Code. I'm not sure what law book your reading but possession of these articles 8 years after the fact is by no means illegal, let alone a felony.

I would suppose that the desire by the owners to have the pieces is in furtherance of their direction to our staff to incinerate the accumulated pieces some four years after the fact. I find it odd that you would burn something when you recognize that the 'owners' would like to have it back. What purpose does that serve?

I wrote previously:

I was asked by my contacts in the Government of Honduras to coordinate and lead their search for the ship. This effort began on my arrival in Honduras on 1 Nov., 1998.

With the assistance of the British Navy's HMS Sheffield we examined and dove on several "new" objects that they found on the bottom. Unfortunately, the waters were dark with run-off and "new" only meant that these soundings were not on established charts of the area. We dove from Oak Ridge to past Guanaja, then South to the Bay of Trujillo. I saw experienced divers become seriously affected by the ordeal. I click on the website that I show below and I begin sobbing, now eight years later. The Sheffield at some point declined further assistance as the threats of lawsuits loomed on the horizon. No hard feelings, brothers. She will be found one day when the US Navy does their field training exercises with submarines in the locale. It will be on their laundry list of "things to do" while in the area.

In that this is in the Wreck Diving section, I will add that diving on a fresh wreck is nothing like what we know in the recreational industry. There is usually zero viz or very limited, and there is serious risk of entanglement or injury. If there are crew still aboard it is a daunting mental task. You hallucinate, you freak, you get sick- there isn't a strong human, man or woman who can walk through it unscathed.

She let off her passengers in Belize City and was ordered out of that Harbor (This is a standard practice, know that- it happend to liveaboards, too) One does not hide a 300' steel hulled apartment building easily. He could have flooded her on the S side of Roatan in the shallows and laid to. Pure conjecture.

You would have to understand the geography (look at a map). He was running East, then he was planning to hook South around the Cape of Honduras. All this close to the South side of Roatan, a large long windblock from Mitch which lingered, building to incredible intesity- to the North. All huricanes move NorthWest. All of them.

Except Mitch.

Just as the SV Fantome was clearing the Eastern reaches of Roatan, Mitch dove South and descended upon Guanaja. Just South of Bonacca Key, the residents could not know nor could they worry about the Fantome- they were in survival mode themselves. The storm then stopped dead and battered the small population center ferociously and with no mercy. It sat there for three days. Only two related deaths, but still to this day, deep psychological wounds remain in the children. Then it continued South to liquefy the mainland. That is where the 12,000 death occured. Katrina was a kitten. It meandered across Central America... then North finally exiting to the sea off the Yucatan. It took one more wobbling shot North East as it gained strength and narrowly missed growing to a strength that would have also devastated Florida or Cuba. It wouldn't die. It wouldn't go North West.

She lies deep off SE of Guanaja, at least if the wash patterns of the flotsam can be used as an indicator. We surmise that the self inflating rafts were lashed, and she went down so fast that by the time they inflated, she was too deep for the pressurized tanks to be of much value in flotation when triggered. In the maelstrom of the moment, it was not an issue of whether they could have saved any lives- they were useless in any case.

I did, on my exit flight aboard the CASA equipment provided for service by TACA from my hop from Roatan to Belize City... I looked down from 1500 feet and did see an (empty) life raft from her floating off of the Government Dock, maybe 30 days after she went down.

31 crewmen were lost that day, 1630 hrs, 27 Oct., 1998. I met the sister of the First Mate some 10 days after that. Her husband, a physician, didn't need to translate in English why she insisted on giving me her brother's picture. She carried a Fantome stenciled life jacket that bore evidence of having been worn but wrenched from the owner. I'd guess after disembarking her passengers in Belize there were quite a few loose life jackets on board. We never found a one of them, but I still wear their name on a band on my wrist. The sea has claimed them. I will bring a few bits of her up from Roatan to the Maritime Sailor's Cathedral & Museum in the near future. In your own train of thought, isn't this exploitation just the same?

If you are hell bent on this ghoulish endeavor replete with the cutesy pirate smiley I must admit, I saw all the new icons and thought they were fun. Unfortunatley this offends you as well....., may I suggest a charity? The wives and children of the lost crew. From what I have read the families of those lost were monetarily compensated.

Thanks for contributing to this post, your information was a worthwhile addition from another perspective. I just simply disagree with your praticular view point. I'm sure your personal involvment in the search led you to this emotional post.

I agree this was a tragedy that in hindsight could have been avoided. A 15mil $ ship isn't worth a single life. They should have stayed in Belize but given the circumstance I don't think there is a Captain out there that would not have tried to out manuver the storm as it approached. It was truly a freak accident.

The charity that I spoke of is one that you are familiar with, it is a childrens orphanage on the island. I find nothing appalling or ghoulish about raising some money for these kids with trash that was washed ashore from the wreck, it's a very honorable and noble cause that I'm happy to help out with.

 

[Doc]

Take your original post.

Wherever you used the word "Fantome", just substitute it with "Space Shuttle Challenger".

It's really the same thing. Scavenge up plundered bits and sell it. Charity does not make it right.

Sleep well. There are many more like me out here who will doggedly remind you.

Out.

 

[diverdown247]

I don't want to jump into shark infested waters here, but I've got to agree with roatan man a little here. As someone who hopes/plans to take FSUs UCSI course, the sheer location of where those items were found as well as the tide conditions and the direction of the current in that area at the time are extremely essential pieces of information. As such, ANY portion of the ship, until found is considered to be forensic evidence and should be turned over to the proper authorities. Granted, once those authorities are no longer in need of said property, they should be released to the person of discovery if left unclaimed by the original owner.

At a minimum, the discovery of these items with the best available informaiton on time, date, and sea/air/weather conditions when found should be reported. If for nothing else, then for a maritime debris log for posterity.

 

[micahjt]

I'm afraid specific information about those conditions are gone at this point. The debris that was collected at the time indicated the area the ship was likely to have gone down. I'm also under the impression that all legal proceedings on the incident are closed as well. There is really nothing more that a piece of debris is going to add to what is already known. The investigation part of this incident is long over. When and if the wreck is ever located perhaps something more can be learned but again I doubt that anything is going to change what is already known. The windjammer was caught in the path of a hurricane and was sunk.

I think but I'm not certain, that Roatan Man equates this material as being part of a sanctuary to the lost. I can appreciate that sentiment but I simply don't agree. Hypothetically, if a hundred or more years had passed, would that somehow change the perspective? Items are recovered from sunken ships where there has been loss of life and these items are sold at auction quite routinely. Are these folks in some violation of some moral code?

I certainly didn't intend for this to be a moral debate. I certainly didn't consider someone taking this as ghoulish or appalling, I still fail to make that connection.

If Roatan Man would like to continue to explain his position as to what makes this so appalling I'm certainly willing to listen with an open mind.....in a private conversation.....or perhaps another thread.

I was just wondering if anyone knew of an appraiser that might have experience with such issues?

 

[IlikeItwetPls]

I hope to make a find like that some day....good luck 'micahjt'!

 

[Brandon]

Items are recovered from sunken ships where there has been loss of life and these items are sold at auction quite routinely. Are these folks in some violation of some moral code?

To some, yes.

-B