Fatality at Peacock Springs today (07-07-2010)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The more I think about this, personally I don't think we're doing ourselves a great service to point to training as the issue here.

Possibly not the level of training, but breaking the rules we all learned in training, on several levels was certainly a factor.

Had they stuck to Intro standards, they wouldn't have had the opportunity to break Full Cave practices.

 

[rjack321]

Had they stuck to Intro standards, they wouldn't have had the opportunity to break Full Cave practices.

Yeah this might be relevant - on 2 levels.

 

[ucfdiver]

Yeah this might be relevant - on 2 levels.

Care to elaborate?

Possibly not the level of training, but breaking the rules we all learned in training, on several levels was certainly a factor.

Had they stuck to Intro standards, they wouldn't have had the opportunity to break Full Cave practices.

True, but breaking a continuous guideline rule was breaking cavern and intro practices. I think complacency is more to blame than lack of knowledge.

 

[BabyDuck]

they had continuous guideline. she ignored it, but she had it.

 

[ucfdiver]

they had continuous guideline. she ignored it, but she had it.

If you count unverified line as a continuous guideline, then yes, she had one. Unfortunately when you do visual jumps, you're simply hoping that you've hit the correct line with no reassurance of it that a jump spool would provide.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Don't know, this was to be my first dive with them. I've spoken with past buddies who said they are very proficient. I know they have been diving peacock every wednesday for about 5 years.

I'm really not willing to be part of a discussion that bashes a victim and a man who tried to save the life of the victim. If you are willing to, you then you are a bigger azzhole than me, and that's just too hard to believe.

Someone died here. It's tragic. We don't know why it happened (yet). Medical or Pilot Error someone is gone now. Let's try to remember that when you are sitting high on your horse about what shoulda, coulda, woulda happened.

And i'm not talking to you specifically Rainer

I don't see anyone bashing anyone else here. The surviving buddy has admitted on CDF that rules were broken. This isn't a simple matter of "pilot error". They didn't forget to put jumps in. They planned the dive that way. Sheck came out with accident analysis over 30 years ago. Every death that has happened in a cave with the exception of one has been caused by breaking one of more of the rules, and recently, a few medical issues. Which I think should be part of the rules because there is also indication prior to the medical deaths of something being wrong and the diver doing the dive anyway. The rules aren't difficult.

Have the proper training for the dives you want to do.
Always maintain a continuous guideline to the surface.
Follow gas management rules of 1/3s or 1/6s or more conservative.
Dive no deeper than the depth you are trained to and have the appropriate gas mix for.
Use and maintain good quality equipment.

According to the surviving buddy, the first 2 rules were broken. Even if we ignore the first one, the number one killer of trained cave divers - failure to maintain a continuous guideline to the surface - was violated. Had a jump line been place she probably would have seen it on her way back and taken that route.

Let's use this incident to reinforce the necessity to follow the rules at all times. They are there for a reason and they have been time tested over decades.

 

[Dive-aholic]

they had continuous guideline. she ignored it, but she had it.

But she obviously didn't know where she was. And with all of the opposing arrows on the Olsen line, if she had thought she was on that line, the confusion makes sense. I don't know if the new arrow set up indicating Pothole as an exit was a factor or not, but I think having the arrows change direction on that line only adds to confusion. I would like to see it changed back to the way it was a couple years ago.

 

[BabyDuck]

Every death that has happened in a cave with the exception of one has been caused by breaking one of more of the rules.

that is not true. correlation is not causation. if every cave death was preceded by frosted flakes or coffee that doesn't mean frosted flakes or coffee caused it.

the rules are important. i don't advocate breaking any of them. yes, breaking them *can* absolutely be causative or contributory to fatalities, but not putting in a line from open water in ginnie (for instance) would not *cause* a death at the bats from a navigational error.

rob, i'm not arguing that they were right and all was good with their plan. i'm just trying to say that following the rules would not have necessarily changed the scenario. sure, they should have. sure, it might have very well made a difference. like mat sais, stack the deck in your favor at every opportunity. but a freaking panicking buddy might have blown right by a jump line, too. the panic is the problem. the lack of line is a diversion.

hmm, i don't see how the arrow change on the olsen line would be an issue on peanut. could you elaborate?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

hmm, i don't see how the arrow change on the olsen line would be an issue on peanut. could you elaborate?

I think he's suggesting that she could've been confused about which line she was on.

In a stressed-out frame of mind that's a definite possibility ... particularly for (some of) us older folks.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jeff Toorish]

Personaly, I am opposed to calling non-line jumps a "visual jump" because it tends to legitimize this practice. Call them what they are, rule-violation jumps.

Jeff