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What about Jose Padilla? An AMERICAN CITIZEN being held on a military base, without access to legal representation or his family. The President and his administration says that this is neccessary because of the terrorist threat. According to them, he is an "enemy combatant". Under what law or portion of the constitution is he being held incommunicado and without trial? Sure, the PADI investigation seems small, but no dictatorship happens overnight.

How much longer before THIS forum is thought to be aiding the terror network? When will the FEDS come haul YOU away? It is important for us as a free nation to not allow ANY violation of our rights, no matter how small, lest we wake up one day and wonder what happened.
 
Originally posted by sharpenu
What about Jose Padilla? An AMERICAN CITIZEN being held on a military base, without access to legal representation or his family.

From Attorney General John Ashcroft's speach on 10 June:

"From information available to the United States government, we know that Abdullah Al Muhajir is an Al Qaeda operative and was exploring a plan to build and explode a radioactive "dirty bomb."

Let me be clear: We know from multiple independent and corroborating sources that Abdullah Al Muhajir was closely associated with Al Qaeda and that as an Al Qaeda operative he was involved in planning future terrorist attacks on innocent American civilians in the United States. "
 
Originally posted by funky__monks


From Attorney General John Ashcroft's speach on 10 June:

"From information available to the United States government, we know that Abdullah Al Muhajir is an Al Qaeda operative and was exploring a plan to build and explode a radioactive "dirty bomb."

Let me be clear: We know from multiple independent and corroborating sources that Abdullah Al Muhajir was closely associated with Al Qaeda and that as an Al Qaeda operative he was involved in planning future terrorist attacks on innocent American civilians in the United States. "
I'm missing your point, Monks. Can you help me out here?
 
Sometimes........... People like Rstone make me sad..........
They want others to fight and die for them but give up a little thing like I am a scuba diver. OH MY what can they do with it!
I am retired Military been to H*** and back for this country and I don't think you are giving up anything. I bet if you had a loved one die on Sept 11 your tune would be different. But as a Calf. person Well let's just leave it at that. Makes me SAD.

Sorry Off my soap box now this polictcal stuff does not belong here we should just chat about diving.

Dive Safe

Shaun
 
Some of us are old enough to remember being lied to by our government, specifically during the Viet Nam era. As a torpedoman, I had a chance to look closely at the so-called Gulf of Tonkin footage, there never was any torpedo. Johnson was just looking for an excuse to get us involved. (offshore oil reserves)
Add to that Hoover's infiltrators into the civil rights & anti-war movement (the troublemakers that turned the peaceful marches violent).
Excuse me if I have second thoughts about trusting politicians.:(

Remember the USS Liberty; we just had the 35th anniversary a few days ago.
http://ussliberty.org
 
To Monks:

If Ashcroft has all of this evidence, let's do it by the rules and prosecute Mr Padilla to the fullest extent of the law. The Constitution is what I fought to defend when I was in the service. Just because the administration mentions it in a speech does not make it so. There are such things as evidence and trials that must be used to prevent abuses of power.

The scary thing is, I have read all about this in the history books. Except then it wsan't stopping terrorists. It was witches. or was it slaves from escaping? demons? jews? croations? communists? Let's face it... the govt is far scarier than terrorists ever will be.

I even saw in the news where officials are backing down from the earlier statements. Could it be that Ashcroft's announcement was timed to deflect attention from criticism of Bush's reorganization plan? Power corrupts...
 
How is what he did different than Jose? (other than not actually getting all the way thru the plan)

Was McVey held in a military institution without a attorney? ....

How convienent that the press release about Jose came just after the press started criticizing the new 'homeland security' department...... Something is fishy in DC and I think it (he) likes BBQ.

What ever happend to 'the buck stops here' sentiment of leadership?

Points to ponder...
 
Way too many people involved in these "discussions" of security and "freedom" are much too young to remember the blood in the streets of the 60s and early 70s. Generally the blood was shed by folks who wanted to change back to the ideals set down in the Constitution, or were just in the wrong place at the right time, with the gleeful assist of hands representing the political twerps who were VERY interested in maintaining the status quo.

Love your country, but distrust your government. They are two completely separate entities. Our country is embodied in its people and the social framework defined by the Constitution. Altering of the framework by trial lawyers, politicians, bureaucrats, special interests, and judicial branch activists is always a threat to the country. Regrettably we have of late been VERY lax in our disciplining of those who would modify the framework to their advantage.

In times of "emergency" it's all too natural for the "Government" to do a power grab. It's OUR JOB as citizens to resist that grab unless it has been proven beyond any doubt that any particular power grab is the ONLY way for the country to survive and a suitable sunset on the grab has been engraved in stone. Normally the best thing our federal government can do domestically is to get out of the way and let the locals and citizens handle it. Outside of information gathering on those that have been identified as threats and disseminating that information to the locals to handle arrests etc there is little that the Feds are doing now that will help. They are still fighting the last war by the methods that worked (or didn't work) then, not this one. That said I think the power grabs so far are much less than what would have happened with a Gore/Reno administration.

History in countries all over the world has shown that ALL laws that CAN be abused to maintain someone in power WILL EVENTUALLY be used to do just that, at the expense of the citizen. Often this abuse is at the cost of the lives of the citizens. We had 2 major world wars last century, and several "police actions". "Legitimate" governments killed THEIR OWN citizens to a total of several times the number of casualties (both civilian and military) in all declared and undeclared wars combined last century. The USSR by itself executed, worked to death, starved to death, or medicated to death well over 30 MILLION of it's citizens last century. Totals that can be confirmed worldwide was over 100 million, with unconfirmed estimates pushing double that.

ANY lawmaker or administration official that passes a rule, law, or policy that could POSSIBLY be abused to the extent the citizens COULD face the problems the Apache, Sioux and Cheyenne tribes faced in the 1880s (a low point in our history) should be allowed and encouraged to immediately exit public life. Encouraging them to depart with a rope and an oak tree, while appropriate, would probably be frowned upon. I guess it's best to use the ballot box to fire them, but a dozen or more bureaucrats feeding crows from the trees on the mall would be an excellent object lesson for the rest of them.
 

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