First Post! First BC purchase, a mistake?

[ScottZeagle]

We don't "demand" that a dive shop sells our gear for ANY price. They can give it away free if they so choose. A minimum ADVERTISED price is exactly that - the lowest price that a dive shop is allowed to advertise.

If we allowed all our dealers to sell at any price they choose, the majority of shops that are not in high volume areas, or do not have the computer knowledge to set up an online store, would virtually disappear.

Zeagle is not willing to be the guys who killed the LDS, and I have yet to see any other LARGER manufacturer do so either.

Zeagle has built a name for itself as a maker of quality goods, made in the USA, but we have been in business for over 25 years. 25 years ago there was no internet presence. Our sales reps beat the bushes, begged dive shop owners to try these radical back inflation BCs with this funny little ripcord system, and promised that it wouldn't float them on their face and kill them. These LDS are the ones that built Zeagle reputation and helped us grow as a company. LP is simply riding on the coat tails of the demand that the LDS created. Maybe a company with less scruples would turn its back on the LDS that helped build it, but Zeagle will not. A MAP is the best way that we have come up with to try and level the playing field for ALL of our dealers. I would love to have 200 Larry Dague's, but that just won't happen...

That being said, I will no longer answer LP questions on ScubaBoard. It is a no win situation for myself or Zeagle Systems.

If you have questions or need advice about Zeagle products, feel free to ask.

Respectfully,

Scott

Edited to add: I started typing this at 4:41pm (board time) and with phone calls and interuptions, just got it done. Thanks Larry for trying to help explain it...maybe I just don't have the right words for it... :11:

 

[Rick_G]

Well, you checked in the wrong places. Many of us do make payrolls and mortgages. We also appear to play by a different set of rules than you are advocating

Difference being the parties involved here aren't telling you how to run your business.

It is not a free market when manufacturers directly or indirectly regulate the prices at which their gear must be sold.

Are you kidding? Free for who?

The consumer protection laws are designed to allow consumers to have access to a free market.

Agree here, yes you want free stuff.

The retailers should be allowed to advertise and sell at prices they deem consistent with good business and prevailing market pressures, without having the opportunity to do so taken away by the manufacturers.

Who's making the retailer sell their products?


Gimmie a break, hello?

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

If we allowed all our dealers to sell at any price they choose, the majority of shops that are not in high volume areas, or do not have the computer knowledge to set up an online store, would virtually disappear.

Zeagle is not willing to be the guys who killed the LDS, and I have yet to see any other LARGER manufacturer do so either.

I don't really see how any policies of advertised-price-fixing are going to work long-term to help the LDS. It goes against the grain of capitalism. If a shop owner can't get set up online, or can't move the kind of volume she needs to, or can't find a niche for herself, well, adios. Again, that's capitalism. People aren't going to pay more than they have to out of the goodness of their hearts when they can get the same thing for less.

LP is simply riding on the coat tails of the demand that the LDS created.

Hmm..maybe. But just as sales avenues have changed with the advent of the Internet, so have information channels. I have never been in a LDS that sold Zeagles, yet I know them to be a quality, trusted brand, thanks to....wait for it...the Internet!

One thing we can all agree on is that the Internet has changed the industry a lot. LeisurePro and ScubaToys have embraced and adapted to that change in their own ways. Is it really the job of manufacturers to help artificially keep alive LDS's that cannot adapt by disallowing adveritsed competition among dealers?

 

[lmorin]

.....
Zeagle is not willing to be the guys who killed the LDS, and I have yet to see any other LARGER manufacturer do so either.

Zeagle has built a name for itself as a maker of quality goods, made in the USA, but we have been in business for over 25 years. 25 years ago there was no internet presence. Our sales reps beat the bushes, begged dive shop owners to try these radical back inflation BCs with this funny little ripcord system, and promised that it wouldn't float them on their face and kill them. These LDS are the ones that built Zeagle reputation and helped us grow as a company. LP is simply riding on the coat tails of the demand that the LDS created. Maybe a company with less scruples would turn its back on the LDS that helped build it, but Zeagle will not. A MAP is the best way that we have come up with to try and level the playing field for ALL of our dealers. I would love to have 200 Larry Dague's, but that just won't happen...

Scott-Thanks for your posts. I respect you and your products. I do worry about a couple of things in your post, however. 1) Zeagle will not be the "guys who killed the LDS" (if, indeed, they do get killed) because when the change occurs (and, it will sooner or later), of necessity it will involve most of the players at once. 2) The "demand" you speak of was not created by the LDS; it was created by the consumers. That being the case, the consumers ultimately govern where they will purchase their gear. 3) I appreciate your sentimentality about the LDS model, but watch out for your own butt. If the national business model changes rapidly, Zeagle enterprises will have to go with the flow or suffer the consequences. That would not be good for consumers or Zeagle. The "Home Depot" model of equipment sales may be just around the bend. Right now, there are fewer local hardware stores than there used to be, but some still survive. The winds of change are blowing. Larry feels them at ScubaToys and is clearly both responding and contributing to them. ScubaToys is well positioned to be the leader in the retail dive equipment sales industry, whether it wants to or not, as the new business model emerges.

 

[Rick_G]

It goes against the grain of capitalism.

To market their product they way they want? That defines capitalism. What your describing is socialism. You want to tell a company how to market their goods and what price you should pay for them. You have the right to your opinion and to buy what you want and from whoever you want. They have the right to sell to who ever they want for whatever price and terms they want to.


Rick

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

To market their product they way they want? That defines capitalism. What your describing is socialism. You want to tell a company how to market their goods and what price you should pay for them. You have the right to your opinion and to buy what you want and from whoever you want. They have the right to sell to who ever they want for whatever price and terms they want to.


Rick

No Rick. What you fail to grasp, though others have explained it to you very plainly, is that my problem is not with who they sell to nor what price they ask.

My problem is that the manufacturers demand the retailers not advertise below a certain price. With all respect, I think you need to read posts more carefully, because I feel like you and I agree. I would also recommend you brush up on your economics, because you throw the word socialism around when it doesn't at all apply.

What I advocate, simply, is this:
a) manufacturers can sell to LDS for whatever price they choose
b) LDS can sell goods for whatever price THEY choose (this is the part that is not currently allowed)
c) I can then choose to buy or not buy from LDS

That is pure capitalism, my friend, allowing the market to set prices based on consumer response. The current model in which manufacturer sets LDS price violates the rules you yourself so vehemently advocate: that retailers should have the right to setthe price as they see fit.

 

[Rick_G]

My problem is that the manufacturers demand the retailers not advertise below a certain price.

Are the retailers mandated to sell certain manufacturers products?

The current model in which manufacturer sets LDS price violates the rules you yourself so vehemently advocate: that retailers should have the right to setthe price as they see fit.

Are the retailers mandated to sell certain manufacturers products?

That is pure capitalism, my friend, allowing the market to set prices based on consumer response.

Again- Are the retailers mandated to sell certain manufacturers products?

I would also recommend you brush up on your economics, because you throw the word socialism around when it doesn't at all apply.

Ok- I'll call it- "People want to control what other people make and sell-ism"

What you're failing to see is that manufacturers "ALLOW" retailers to sell their products under the guidelines set forth in the dealer agreement. Manufacturers give the retailers the opportunity to make money off of the manufactures products. If retailers don't like the agreement they don't have to sell the manufacturers products. The products are the manufacturers to sell and distribute any way they see fit.

With all respect, I think you need to read posts more carefully, because I feel like you and I agree.

I knew you'd see it my way

Rick

 

[garyfotodiver]

Hey Gary, the thing I don't understand is when you can buy if for the exact same price with warranty, why did you opt to buy grey market anyway? There are multiple places, not just Scubatoys that will match their price and give you a full warranty from the manufacturer... That's the thing I don't get.

First, you don't carry the varied range of items that LP does. I bought a pair of Harvey's boots for $34 delivered. You don't carry Harvey's so you can't provide what I want.

I bought 2 wetsuits from a LDS because neither you nor LP carry Seaquest wetsuits.

Second, I don't care much about a warranty. If my regulator gives out at 60fsw, the best manufacturer's warranty won't help me. My training will. I purchase quality equipment and take care of it. I expect it will, in turn, take care of me.

Where I come from, there is a saying in the merchant business, "Money talks and nobody walks!"

 

[GW Diver]

Hi!
I'm a new diver, with about 15 dives. I got tired of cheap rental equipment so I decided to buy my own. I shopped around here, and then on internet. I bought my mask and regs off ebay. I bought a sherwood wisdom computer at leisurepro because it costed me 600$ canadian with tax and shipping. The LDS sells them for 1200 + 15% tax. After receiving the brand new unit in less than 4 days, I decided to buy all my stuff from Leisure Pro. A few days ago, I ordered all the remeining stuff I needed (including a zeagle ranger BC). I'm supposed to receive everything tomorrow by fedex, and will have saved about 800$ off LDS prices. Everything was fine until I discovered this board yesterday! I read somewhere that zeagle considers the BC'S Leisurepro sells as "grey market" and will not honor the guarantee!
the way I see that, is: 1- that Zeagle allows retailers to sell below msrp.
2- Leisure Pro is buying the bc they sell from somewhere.
3- Someone must be selling bc's to leisure pro
4- the person who sells those bc's to leisure pro must be buying them from
zeagle.
5- zeagle won't honor the guarantee of one of their brand new products
because of the person who sells them.
If everything is like i think, I won't have any guarantee on my bc. Am I right? Is there something I can do about that? Why does the companies (like zeagle) penalize the users of their products instead of their retailers?

Thanks for the awnsers!

Zeagle adds the extra cost in for life time warranty.LP does not buy them with a warranty. LP buys all there eqipment w/o a warranty. cheaper buy the dozen also. thats marketing for ya. SUPPORT your Local Dive Shop. keep the dive industry going

 

[wtrdoc52]

Hmm..maybe. But just as sales avenues have changed with the advent of the Internet, so have information channels. I have never been in a LDS that sold Zeagles, yet I know them to be a quality, trusted brand, thanks to....wait for it...the Internet

!

As a lasped diver who is again gearing up, I certainly agree with you, the internet has changed the way one can purchase equipment. However, seems to me a novice diver is better off working with and purchasing from a LDS, until he/she has plenty of dives under their weight belts. In this case, the extra these folks may pay for their equipment, is recovered through the knowledge gleaned from the experienced folks at the LSD. If as an experienced diver you don't require this "value added service", then, it does make sense to shop strictly on price.

I've spent the past 6 mos picking the brains of the folks at the LDS. This is where I was introduced to the bp+wings bc system. However, they only sell Halcyon and are apparently restricted in their selling prices. After stumbling across ScubaBoard the other day and posing a question about Halcyon, and thanks to the great response from you folks, I quickly became aware of the many companies dealing in this product line. It is also pretty obvious that I can easily save several hundred dollars on the purchase of this item by shopping on the internet. However, suspect I'll go back to LDS and see if they can order what I want and if so, I'll pay the extra to reimburse them for their time.

Since it is a new system for me, I can go out with the LDS to get checked out on the bp+wings. However, suspect, I'll go to the local beach and learn on my own. This in part because of the excellent technical info I've picked up on this board concerning the use of bp+wings. Still, there are plenty of people who prefer to have help when using a new piece of equipment. They can't very well buy a piece of equipment online and expect to have the LDS show them how to use the piece of equipment for free? Although... there are fees for these courses? Hmm. Well, perhaps the LDS can be replaced by DC's or Dive Consultants? This person helps you obtain certification, shop for equipment, check out on new equipment...all for set fees. Still, it is nice to head to your LDS and be able to "touch" the stuff you are interested in purchasing.

This reminds me of a beef I have with vets. I pay them for their expertise when my pup is sick. On top of their hourly rate, they then sell me the meds at extremely high marked up prices. Now, is this capitalism at work, or should I be speaking with the consumer advocate on this thread?