H2O Odyssey Spare Air

[PerroneFord]

PerroneFord, I've to respecfully disagre with some of your coments:

1)The ponybottle, SA, H2O concept is not superfluous, when murphy strikes, it's
allways when you can get boned, so self rescue is the best approach to everything in life. It's better to ascend calmly than to rush to the surface in an emergency ascent, just make sure you don't dive to 130ft with a SA and think that it will save you, if you do, just be aware and prepare yourself mentaly for the last leg of the ascent will be an emergency ascent.
If you're going to 130ft, get the apropiate redundant air source, it all comes down to using the right equipment for the dive and not exceed those limits.

2) 80cf last me 60 min in less than 35 fsw, but I rarely dive that shallow, I dive most of my dives between 65 fsw and 110 fsw with an average dive duration from 25 min and 45 min depending on the dive profile.

3) A bail out bottle is allways a good idea, no matter if you dive by the book and never exceed your limits, as for buddies, I personally don't rely on a buddy to help me out, if he can help, good, but I don't rely on them to save my life.

All fair counterpoint. Murphy is a son-of-a-gun!

1. Again, if you are dropping down to 130ft, NDL is about 10 minutes on air. I don't think most recreational divers will be traveling down that far for a 10 minute stay. So either they will let it go, or they will be into mandatory deco. A scary proposition without redundant gas.

2. Again, I was probing at basic recreational depths. At 50 feet, you've got 80 minutes before mandatory deco. So unless you've got a more than 80cuft on your back, you shouldn't be running out of air. And if you're calculating your profiles to leave a healthy reserve, you shouldn't be anywhere NEAR running out of air. Not saying recreational users should be turning on thirds, but beginning the ascent with 1000 psi probably isn't a bad idea. If you're pushing the limits (90ft+), I'd be looking for more strict planning.

3. I will respectfully disagree that a bail-out bottle is "always" a good idea. But your point is well taken. Proper gas management, in whatever it's form, is a good idea for all divers. And the idea of redundancy isn't only the domain of technical divers.

To my mind, diving with a team mentality is important. Yes, you should be self-sufficient, but either you have a team, or you are a solo diver. There really isn't anything inbetween.

 

[divewriter]

Without getting embroiled in related and hackneyed topics of use, I can tell you this about the H2Odyssey reg itself: I have used one of the originals, which did not have an on-off valve, and kept 2nd stage pressurized at all times. To save seat components, you would need to bleed tanks before storage and refill before use - not the simplest way to go. New model has small off valve built in and is cleaner embodiment of concept. Reg design is straightforward and offers reasonable but not stellar breathing. Concept of attaching 2nd directly to swivel on first is a bit awkward but works. Refill fitting is a bit time consuming to use. If you are still interested, you might want to check on a similar model due out soon from Zeagle, with a few added features that enhance useability.

 

[Chris Hipp]

"I just hate to see the bailout bottle become an excuse for not practicing safe diving habits, or worse, not working with your diving buddies as a team."

That is pretty much the most intelligent thing said in the thread. As long as you are not planning on burning up your primary and then ending the dive with your back-up, then you should be fine and never have to use it. It should not be used to ignore normal safety procedure.

Maybe it wont save you if you have a catastrophic failure of some kind, but it is better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[mike_s]

I concur with you 100%, it's just a sales gimmick to trap some flies into buying the product.

I'm waiting for the "TRI-MIX" model to come out before I buy (sarcasm implied)

 

[markfm]

What would a more classic pony package be? Something like a 13 cf, 5' hose, but what reg? Purely for redundancy, not seeking overly complex/large/whatever.

 

[spectrum]

What would a more classic pony package be? Something like a 13 cf, 5' hose, but what reg? Purely for redundancy, not seeking overly complex/large/whatever.

Probably any regulator you care to count on except a Sherwood since the dry bleed would deplete the tank needlessly.

Size would depend on the activity. Some dive / gas planning or a rock bottom calculation would tell more. I hear 40CF more than 13 it seems.

Pete

 

[markfm]

Thanks for the info, I'm just poking about, learning.

New question -- the h2odyssey EAS reg, swivel 2nd stage screws into the first. Is it easy to adapt it, put a hose between the pony/first stage and the reg that the EAS has? I'm thinking the EAS packages look kind of nice, perhaps go to the 19 with a tank band, need to convert the 2nd stage to a normal 2nd stage on an LP hose.

 

[pete v]

"I just hate to see the bailout bottle become an excuse for not practicing safe diving habits, or worse, not working with your diving buddies as a team."

That is pretty much the most intelligent thing said in the thread. As long as you are not planning on burning up your primary and then ending the dive with your back-up, then you should be fine and never have to use it. It should not be used to ignore normal safety procedure.

Maybe it wont save you if you have a catastrophic failure of some kind, but it is better than nothing, I suppose.

absolutley saftey first!!! along with common sence i was more heading in the direction of out if the ordinary situations and i dont like to see people getting dogged for asking a question,because i have a lot of them and this is ussually a great place to do reserch and ask questions.

 

[DaFireMedic]

There have been some statements made about alternate air sources that I disagree with. Saying that a pony bottle is merely an excuse for poor air management skills is like saying that wearing a helmet on a street bike is just an excuse for poor riding skills. It is not a valid reason not to use one. I will not choose nor dismiss a possible safety tool simply because someone else may be inclined to misuse it. If I choose to use a pony bottle, it will be strictly as a bail out bottle, and only as a last resort. I will practice with it, know its limitations, take into account the added stress of an emergency, then plan my dives/dive my plans as though it is not there. And I will use good air management skills to see to it that I have done everything within my power to not have to use the pony bottle. And I always do an honest assessment of skills and abilities, and dive within them. There is no excuse for an OOA situation, but that does not mean that it will never happen.

There are 3 rules that I have come to live by in my 14 years of emergency work, including many operations in extremely hazardous environments:

“Never say never”:
You can greatly reduce the risk of bad things happening through training and planning, but you cannot completely eliminate the unexpected. Those who say that they will never have an out of air emergency because they are well trained/experienced or good at planning are asking for trouble. Just because it has not happened to you yet, does not mean that it never will. Always plan for the worst, to lessen the chance that a problem at depth will become a fatal one. As a confined space rescue instructor, I will never make entry into a low oxygen or toxic environment without my bail out bottle. It is not a crutch, but a safety tool in the event of a catastrophic failure of my main system.

“It ain’t over till its over”:
If I ever find myself in an OOA situation underwater, I will use every tool that I have to get to the surface. If I was at 130 fsw, I’d sure as heck try the ascent with a 6 cu ft pony bottle, or even a Spare Air if that’s all I had, over an emergency ascent any day, and I have little doubt that I’d make it to the surface. It may not be a safe 60’ per minute ascent and I would be risking other, treatable dive maladies, but it is far better than the alternative. DCI is treatable, remaining underwater with no air to breathe is 100% fatal. That being said, I would never carry a bottle that small for a dive that deep as it is clearly inadequate, and there are far better choices available. But to those who say that you would be better off with nothing at all on rec dives, I must disagree.

“Simpler is safer”
The less complicated something is, the less likely you (as a human) are to screw things up. If you or your buddy end up in an OOA situation, it is almost always better to resolve the situation yourself rather than ascend connected to a buddy. The horrid rate of double drownings on shared air ascents testifies to this. Some divers here say that they train regularly with their buddies on sharing air, etc, and this certainly the right thing to do, as long as you practice with everyone you dive with. But most people don’t do this, and it will not help with the unknown dive buddy that you are paired with on the boat against your will. But of even greater concern to me is the fact that you never know how someone is going to react when faced with a sudden emergency until they are actually faced with it. Training and practice certainly help, but at least twice now I’ve seen divers bolt toward the surface with eyes as big as saucers. I certainly don’t want to be attached to that person when he runs out of air. And I’ve seen several more do it from hazardous environments on land, despite literally hundreds of hours of training. You simply do not know for sure when someone is going to panic.

Anyway, the bottom line is self sufficiency. You can enjoy buddy diving, be a good dive buddy, and still be self sufficient. If your buddy needs you, you are there. But if he can resolve the problem using self sufficiency, even better. Safe diving involves planning, and that means planning for the unexpected. A fully redundant air supply is a valid part of that equation.