Hey SCUBA gear heads - best regulator for under $1,000 = ?

[buddhasummer]

Why are you selling your g-250s you love them.

Because I don't need 10 of them but do need some money.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The same factory does not mean the same quality. I build houses. I can build you various levels of durability, efficiency, perfection or fancy. Same builder, same workers and same lumber yard. It doesn't mean its the same product. We start with a design and make the desired compromises to achieve the product. The factory doesn't define the product, the specifier does.

This is exactly right.

You can get basically the same OEM regulator design in several brands. Dive Rite for example, sells the same basic first stage design that can be had from other companies. There are however differences in the details and more importantly in the specified tolerances.

For example, I recommend Dive Rite regulators to customers who don't want a Scubapro (or Halcyon or Sub Gear or Tusa) regulator. I do that because Dive Rite specifies particular changes to the basic design (different diaphragm specifications, etc) and more importantly specifies (and pays for) precise manufacturing tolerances. That means that while it might look like other first stages from other companies, it is more precisely made, and that comes at greater cost to both Dive Rite and the customer. But it'll perform better and more consistently than the cheaper versions made in the same factory to looser tolerances at lower cost.

That matters because sometimes the tolerances stack in a manner that makes good performance hard, or impossible to achieve. For example, Scubapro used rather wide tolerances on the R190, with the result that some of them had exceptional performance while others could just barely meet the fairly high inhalation effort specification. However, I never encountered one I could not make perform well - provided I had a bin full of parts to pick and choose from. Inexpensive regulators from other companies have similar issues, as do "higher end" regs from other low price brands that are sold at a low price point, but by necessity, wide tolerances in their parts.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

You forgot a big one - Atomic Aquatics designs, manufactures (via their Atomica R&D subsidiary) and assembles their own regulators.

I didn't forget one. Atomic is in the same category as Scubapro, which "assembles" their own regulators in their factory in Italy - but the actual parts are made by Tabata.

There is a big difference between making and assembling a regulator. It makes no sense for Scubapro - or Atomic - to actually produce the individual parts. The infrastructure to produce high quality parts quickly and efficiently is extremely expensive - far more expensive that is economical for a company selling just it's own regulators. That's why many companies contract out the parts production (to save on costs) and then assemble the parts in their own factory (to maintain good quality control). Companies that do produce their own parts, also work as contractors producing parts for other companies to get a return on the investment they made in to their production facilities.

 

[BoltSnap]

Scubapro, which "assembles" their own regulators in their factory in Italy - but the actual parts are made by Tabata.

Right next to the Ferrari, Lamborghini and Fiat factories.

 

[KeithG]

This is exactly right.

You can get basically the same OEM regulator design in several brands. Dive Rite for example, sells the same basic first stage design that can be had from other companies. There are however differences in the details and more importantly in the specified tolerances.

For example, I recommend Dive Rite regulators to customers who don't want a Scubapro (or Halcyon or Sub Gear or Tusa) regulator. I do that because Dive Rite specifies particular changes to the basic design (different diaphragm specifications, etc) and more importantly specifies (and pays for) precise manufacturing tolerances. That means that while it might look like other first stages from other companies, it is more precisely made, and that comes at greater cost to both Dive Rite and the customer. But it'll perform better and more consistently than the cheaper versions made in the same factory to looser tolerances at lower cost.

That matters because sometimes the tolerances stack in a manner that makes good performance hard, or impossible to achieve. For example, Scubapro used rather wide tolerances on the R190, with the result that some of them had exceptional performance while others could just barely meet the fairly high inhalation effort specification. However, I never encountered one I could not make perform well - provided I had a bin full of parts to pick and choose from. Inexpensive regulators from other companies have similar issues, as do "higher end" regs from other low price brands that are sold at a low price point, but by necessity, wide tolerances in their parts.

This has me curious. I have never thought of regulators as precision equipment. They have several sealing surfaces that are taken care of by big fat gushy orings. Not much precision required.

In general they have a bunch of very simple big sloppy parts that can be abused and they will continue to work reliably - mainly due to the lack of precision.

In my piston first stage you do want the face of the moving oriface to meet the seat on the piston flat. But the seat is a press fit by hand teflon part - once again not what I would consider high precision.

Am I missing something?

 

[Joneill]

I didn't forget one. Atomic is in the same category as Scubapro, which "assembles" their own regulators in their factory in Italy - but the actual parts are made by Tabata.

There is a big difference between making and assembling a regulator. It makes no sense for Scubapro - or Atomic - to actually produce the individual parts. The infrastructure to produce high quality parts quickly and efficiently is extremely expensive - far more expensive that is economical for a company selling just it's own regulators. That's why many companies contract out the parts production (to save on costs) and then assemble the parts in their own factory (to maintain good quality control). Companies that do produce their own parts, also work as contractors producing parts for other companies to get a return on the investment they made in to their production facilities.

Not according to Atomic:

Atomic Aquatics Research Development and Manufacturing

It appears that they produce, at least, all of the critical metal parts themselves. I'm not sure about the plastic parts as they don't seem to speak to those on their site.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Not according to Atomic:

Atomic Aquatics Research Development and Manufacturing

It appears that they produce, at least, all of the critical metal parts themselves. I'm not sure about the plastic parts as they don't seem to speak to those on their site.

I assume they CNC their own stuff.

 

[halocline]

This has me curious. I have never thought of regulators as precision equipment. They have several sealing surfaces that are taken care of by big fat gushy orings. Not much precision required.

In general they have a bunch of very simple big sloppy parts that can be abused and they will continue to work reliably - mainly due to the lack of precision.

In my piston first stage you do want the face of the moving oriface to meet the seat on the piston flat. But the seat is a press fit by hand teflon part - once again not what I would consider high precision.

Am I missing something?

The regulator you've described is a flow-by design, like the old sherwoods or the MK2. In the flow-through balanced piston design there are some areas of machining that require some precision. (Precision being a relative term, of course)

For example, the piston shaft journal on a MK10 needs to be in very close alignment with the ambient chamber, and there are close tolerances between the piston shaft and the journal for the HP o-ring. Problems in either of those areas would contribute to IP creep and/or excessive extrusion (and wear) in the HP o-ring. The reg will work, but not as well, if the tolerances are not met.

In fact, that's at least one reason that the MK10 has a smaller diameter than the earlier MK5, apparently it allowed SP to machine the entire body out of one piece so that the ambient chamber and piston shaft journal could be more precisely aligned, rather than have those parts be threaded together.

 

[george_austin]

This has me curious. I have never thought of regulators as precision equipment. They have several sealing surfaces that are taken care of by big fat gushy orings. Not much precision required.

In general they have a bunch of very simple big sloppy parts that can be abused and they will continue to work reliably - mainly due to the lack of precision.

In my piston first stage you do want the face of the moving oriface to meet the seat on the piston flat. But the seat is a press fit by hand teflon part - once again not what I would consider high precision.

Am I missing something?

LOL - ok, go ahead and set a titanium billet up in a milling machine and go for it.

 

[KeithG]

LOL - ok, go ahead and set a titanium billet up in a milling machine and go for it.

What I was really looking for was some idea of the manufacturing tolerances of the various pieces.

I gew up using presses to assemble and disassemble machinery since the metal to metal fit tolerances were so close. Since regulators are hand press fit, they seem to pretty sloppy.

Anybody have any idea?