How is time away from diving determined?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I am absolutely not encouraging you to do anything you are uncomfortable with but in Bonaire you could strap on a tank of 32 Nitrox and dive in the 15 to 30 feet range and see tons of stuff and it would be little more risk then snorkeling. Bari reef and the foundation come to mind as well as many of the southern sites where there can be lots of life in the sandy areas before the reef even starts.

Thanks so much for the suggestion, uncfnp. Right now I'm "gun shy" about diving before my six months are up. I'm sure I would be fine since I'd be on nitrox and in shallow water. Also, if there's any surge in the 15-30 foot range, I'm going to be feeding the fish. Ugh. I know when we were in Curacao for the SB Surge, there was a lot of surge in the shallow water. I fed the fish a couple of times. So, I'll just have to find some other trouble to get into :)
 
Definitely,

This actually came up when I was teaching on the NOAA course in Seattle last week when I referred to rash as part of the 'mild' spectrum of DCI. One of the course participants objected to characterization of cutis marmorata as 'mild'. My point then, as it is now, was that the rash per se is not a serious problem. It will not of itself cause you any harm, and if it is the only manifestation present then it can regarded as mild. However, the significance of cutis is that there is a recognized (but not invariable) association with more serious symptoms. So if we see cutis, we should be alert to the possibility that there may be other manifestations present or on the way. This is the basis of confusion about how it should be viewed as a symptom. It certainly gets my attention when I see it and I would make sure there is nothing else going on, but if it turns out to be the ONLY thing going on (as in the OP's case), then I would still regard that as a mild case. IIRC this is how the remote DCI workshop saw it in 2004 when trying to define mild DCI.

Let me illustrate with 3 hypothetical cases that draw on many of the points made in this thread.

Case 1. A diver is at 40' for 30 minutes then panics and comes rocketing to the surface. He holds his breath and suffers pulmonary barotrauma. At the surface he rapidly becomes weak down his left side, and then unconscious. Shortly after, whilst managing his airway and administering oxygen the rescuers notice he has a cutis marmorata-like rash on his chest.

In this case it is almost certain that large bubbles introduced to the arterial circulation by pulmonary barotrauma have gone to the brain. These bubbles have caused a stroke-like syndrome, and the rash may well have arisen through the same brain-related mechanism as in the Kemper pig experiment. Obviously this is not a mild case, but it is serious because of the serious neurological manifestations, not because of the rash.

Case 2. A diver is a 90' for 25 minutes and makes an appropriate ascent and safety stop. Thirty minutes after the dive they notice an itch over the abdomen. Initially there is a pink rash but over the next 15 minutes it develops a blotchy appearance like cutis marmorata. Around this time they also develop tingling in both feet that slowly ascends up the legs, and there is an increasing sense that it is harder to stand and walk. The dive master is informed and the diver is given 100% oxygen. A doctor on board performs a neurological examination and finds weakness in both legs, with some reduction in sensation to pain up to the lower abdomen. The diver is evacuated on 100% oxygen and the rash slowly fades whereas the weakness remains.

This symptoms (rash and neurological symptoms) could not be caused by large bubbles going to the brain. The neurological symptoms are serious, but are localized to the spinal cord, not the brain. It is likely that tiny bubbles have crossed a PFO or pulmonary shunt, been carried to the skin and spinal cord in the arterial blood, and grown from inward diffusion of dissolved nitrogen from the surrounding tissue. Alternatively the bubbles might have formed in the skin or spinal cord tissue itself. Whatever the pathophysiological mechanism, this is obviously not a mild case, but it is serious because of the spinal manifestations, not because of the rash.

Case 3. A diver is a 90' for 25 minutes and makes an appropriate ascent and safety stop. Thirty minutes after the dive they notice an itch over the abdomen. Initially there is a pink rash but over the next 15 minutes it develops a blotchy appearance like cutis marmorata. They feel a little tired (as usual after diving) but otherwise completely well. In particular, there are no neurological manifestations. The dive master is informed and the diver is given 100% oxygen. Over the next hour the rash gradually fades away and diver continues to feel well. A doctor on board performs a neurological examination and can find no abnormalities.

It is virtually certain that this case could not be caused by large bubbles going to the brain (because if large bubbles had gone to the brain there would be other serious symptoms). It is much more likely that tiny bubbles have crossed a PFO or pulmonary shunt, been carried to the skin in the arterial blood, and grown from inward diffusion of dissolved nitrogen from the surrounding skin tissue. Alternatively the bubbles might have formed in the skin tissue itself. Whatever the pathophysiological mechanism, the rash itself will cause no harm, and in the absence of any other more serious symptoms, the case can be considered "mild".

Hope this makes sense.

Simon
Thanks for the examples which are truly educating me about DCS. One thing I didn't mention in my case was along with the itching (first symptom) and marbling (second symptom),I started having a dull pain in my sternum just before I headed to the chamber. The pain totally went away after the chamber treatment. The only thing left was light marbling on the abdomen. When you discuss a "rash" I always think of small itchy bumps. I itched but there were no bumps...just the marbling. Is a rash the same as marbling?
 
As a completely non-medical person Case 3 gives rise to this question, "Since the rash itself will cause no harm, and in the absence of any other more serious symptoms, the case can be considered "mild" how is extended treatment / observation (and extended abstinence from diving) called for if the rash disappears? That is to say, if the external symptoms are not present in this type of case, what would cause them to reappear or not reappear by not diving for an arbitrary period of time (1 week, 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, forever, etc.)? Please forgive my lay ignorance.

Hi Mike,

Not ignorant at all. It is a perfectly valid point, and indeed, this was the point of my first post in this thread. I felt that in the OP's case, taken at face value, the recommendation for 6 months off was too conservative. Moreover the consensus of the mild DCI in remote locations workshop in 2004 [1] was that such a case could be managed adequately without recompression; particularly if recompression would be difficult to access. Thus, I would recompress such a case if they presented somewhere with reasonable access to a hyperbaric unit, but I would not evacuate them at great expense or hazard from a remote location for recompression.

As to a minimum time that they should have off diving after such an event, that is more tricky. No one really knows is the honest answer. I can tell you that divers on `trips of a lifetime` to places like Truk Lagoon who have developed rashes (as the only symptom) which disappeared after surface oxygen have returned to modified diving after a couple of days with no problems. But no one really knows how risky this is. It is a risk vs benefit decision that gets made by the diver under the circumstances. I normally recommend a month off after full recovery from DCI and this is a fairly common recommendation. It would probably be a reasonable recommendation in the present case.

I would like to be clear that I am not being critical of the OP`s treating clinicians. They may have had reasons to be conservative. For example, in his / her latest post the OP mentions chest pain at the time of the rash onset. The treating doctors may have interpreted this as cardiopulmonary DCI (the `chokes`) - thought to be caused by many small venous gas emboli arriving in the lung circulation at the same time. This is definitely a more serious form and this may have been the basis for their advice.

Simon M

1.
MITCHELL SJ, DOOLETTE DJ, WACHOLZ C, VANN RD (eds). Management of Mild or Marginal Decompression Illness in Remote Locations – Workshop Proceedings. Washington DC, Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society, 240pp (ISBN 0 9673066 6 3), 2005
 
Thanks Simon. In my own experience in the Navy (which is admittedly conservative) and at Duke, from a treatment perspective, cutis is viewed as a more serious symptom because it's often accompanied by more serious symptoms. For example, if we had your 90'/:35 diver from case three, his only reported symptom was a type I rash, it resolved on 100% O2 on transport, and he was asymptomatic on arrival, we may observe him on the surface for several hours and if he remained asymptomatic we probably wouldn't treat. That's common practice for us with the hive-like skin bends that happen occasionally in our research subjects and assistants. On the other hand, if the same diver had cutis as the only reported symptom, it resolved on 100% O2 on transport, and he was asymptomatic on arrival, we would almost certainly treat him in the chamber, the rationale being that (a) it's possible that the diver had neurological symptoms that were either subclinical or missed in an exam in an outlying ED (we've found things like balance and gait disturbances that weren't caught on a more blunt neurological exam) and (b) if the diver experienced a recurrence when the O2 was d/c'd it could be accompanied by new-onset severe neurological symptoms.

That said, location is certainly a factor. Almost all of our divers with DCS come from the coast of North Carolina and it's rare for us to get one more than 8-ish hours out from symptom onset. We've discussed remote DCS cases in conferences and consulted on them as well (though not with the frequency that you do I'm sure), and I know we'd look at someone like my cutis diver above differently if he was 18 hours by boat from the nearest island with a runway. The "trip of a lifetime" scenario is tricky. In the past we've advised divers with resolved DCS on a dive trip to refrain from diving for the rest of the trip, and educated them on the possible consequences of doing so. Of course what they do with that advice is entirely up to them.

I do agree that 6 months is a bit on the long side for time off diving if the diver is otherwise healthy and the symptoms have completely resolved, but like you I'm hesitant to Monday-morning QB a physician who's examined the individual in person. Thanks for the discourse and the pathophys!

Best regards,
DDM
 
I would like to be clear that I am not being critical of the OP`s treating clinicians.

I'm hesitant to Monday-morning QB a physician who's examined the individual in person. Thanks for the discourse and the pathophys

I would like to thank you both. I was afraid that you wouldn't answer for fear of being thought of as Monday morning QB's. I really appreciate your responses. This exchange has been extremely educational for me and I'm sure many others. As an older (68) diver that has always used the philosophy that if the computer says I'm ok, then I'm ok. Fortunately, I have a computer that I can set the conservatism on and have now done so to a much more conservative setting. I would rather be a little safer than sorrier.
Again, thank you both for your input. You guys are a major reason that people come on this website - education and discussion. I have learned a lot!

Thanks and have a GREAT day! - M²
 
Thanks so much, DDM and Simon M for such an informative exchange. I appreciate and respect your knowledge regarding DCI. I certainly don't feel either of you have been "Monday morning QBs." I've learned a lot and do have another question. If a person has the marbling does it mean there are bubbles under the abdomen tissue that are trying to escape? If so, are there holes in the tissue that need to heal? If that's the case, is the healing done once the marbling goes away?

I'm grateful that both of you are staff members on SB. The service you provide is invaluable. Your explanations have helped this lay person to better understand DCI.
 
Let me point that back at Simon. He and his peers, some of whom I've been lucky enough to work with, are the source of most of the knowledge I have.

Best regards,
DDM
 
My six month "no-dive sentence" due to skin bends was over on March 23, 2018. Yeah!!! I went diving on March 24 and felt great. It was so nice to be back in the water, although wearing a 5mm and several layers was not fun. I can't wait until our beautiful ocean warms up!

I did end up going to the 2018 ScubaBoard Surge in Bonaire in January. However, I didn't dive and only snorkeled once (I'm a horrible snorkeler!). I found other interesting things to do.....an island tour, a little shopping, but the best thing is did was assisting the wonderful volunteers at Sea Turtle Conservation Bonaire on attempting to rescue a sea turtle with a hook and helping to excavate a hatched out sea turtle nest for statistical purposes. I volunteer at Loggerhead Marinelife Center in Juno Beach, FL, so helping a fellow organization was great and a lot of fun!

I want to thank DDM, Simon M, and ScubaBoarders who responded to my post. You all are the BEST!

Happy Bubbles!

islanddream
 
How awesome is that? Great to hear!

Best regards,
DDM
 

Back
Top Bottom