How to ignore a dive flag?

[Genesis]

only costs people their freedoms, and leads to licenses being denied or revoked for reasons unrelated to the activity in question.

Second, a license does not (and cannot) prevent someone from doing a thing that would otherwise be prohibited. It is unnecessary to enforce regulations on doing those thing(s) (you don't need a license to go into a bank in order to punish bank robbers, for instance)

It is thus a fraud on its face.

Finally, things that are rights (such as the right to travel) may not be infringed upon by licensure without fundamentally changing that right into a privilege. Even when the "license" is seen as easily obtained and trivially renewed (today), the fundamental character of that activity is forever changed in impermissible ways.

 

[AzAtty]

The most recent appellate cases on the issue take a different view. There is no fundamental right to drive a vehicle. Miller v. Reed, 176 F.3d 1202 (9th Cir. 1999). Thus, the burdens placed on travel generally, such as gasoline taxes, or minor burdens impacting interstate travel, such as toll roads, do not constitute a violation of the fundamental right of interstate travel. Likewise, burdens on a single mode of transportation do not implicate the right to interstate travel. 176 F.3d at 1205. The notion that a person has a fundamental right to the most convenient form of travel has no basis in any of the Supreme Court's right of travel jurisprudence. 176 F.3d at 1206. The argument that a person has a fundamental right to operate a motor vehicle because of its relation to the fundamental right to interstate travel has been called "utterly frivolous." Id. For additional reasoning on the subject, see Dixon v. Love, 431 U.S. 105, 112-16, 97 S.Ct. 1723, 52 L.Ed.2d 172 (1977); Mackey v. Montrym, 443 U.S. 1, 10, 99 S.Ct. 2612, 61 L.Ed.2d 321 (1979); Bell v. Burson, 402 U.S. 535, 539, 542-43, 91 S.Ct. 1586, 29 L.Ed.2d 90 (1971); City of Houston v. FAA, 679 F.2d 1184, 1198 (5th Cir.1982); Monarch Travel Servs., Inc. v. Associated Cultural Clubs, Inc., 466 F.2d 552, 554 (9th Cir.1972).

Incidentally, the "right to travel" is not a fundamental right protected by the United States Constitution. Accordingly, sweeping all travel into one constitutional pile is invalid. The Constitution protects the right to interstate travel. Absent travel between states, the requisite Constitutional nexus does not exist. As another point of interest, the more recent Federal Appellate Court decisions, and Supreme Court decisions, indicate that international travel is not a fundamental right. See e.g. Eunique v. Powell, 302 F.3d 971 (9th Cir. 2002); Hutchinson v. District of Columbia, 188 F.3d 531 (D.C. Cir. 1999) ("International travel is no more than an aspect of liberty that is subject to reasonable government regulation within the bounds of due process, whereas interstate travel is a fundamental right subject to a more exacting standard.")

To the extent licensing schemes "cost people their freedoms," Scubapro, Seaquest, Aqualung and other scuba equipment manufacturers would assuredly argue that antitrust laws--and advocacy groups such as the Diver's Union--"cost them their freedom" of conducting business laissez faire. That any law or regulation restricts absolute freedom is a foregone conclusion. The legislature and the courts must strike a balance between restricting certain personal interests and fostering an orderly and reasonably safe society.

 

[mars2u]

AzAtty once bubbled...
The legislature and the courts must strike a balance between restricting certain personal interests and fostering an orderly and reasonably safe society.

Exactly. We've gone from discussing safety to personal freedom. I'm sure some opinions would change if they or their loved ones would get hurt through reckless or imprudent actions. They would want much stricter measures.

 

[Genesis]

will ALWAYS argue, posthumously, for something that would have kept YOU (the one they loved) from expiring.

That is human nature. That does not make the desired result "right".

It is also human nature to protect the power structure you are a part of. Thus, the decisions cited above are no surprise.

In fact, what IS surprising is when you see a jurist agree that freedom is indeed the proper order of business, as has recently been opined in a second-amendment related case (I'd post the cite, but that's REALLY off-topic for this board!)

BTW, the 14th Amemdment "pushes down" federal strictures upon the states. Yes, I know, the 14th amendment is for all intents and purposes toilet paper these days - but that doesn't change what is actually written there.

You think we live in a Constitutional Republic any longer? Ha! We live in a nation where courts continually "re-write" rather than "interpret" what the Constitution says, and people freely throw away their freedoms in the name of "security" - while actually obtaining NEITHER.

We made the "grand mistake" in the US, from which all of the insanity we have now has flowed, when we went to direct election of Senators. That made possible what had until that point been impossible - cramming things the federal government can't or won't do down into the state and local level. A state-house-selected senate was the check and balance the founders put into the federal government to prevent this, as no state's machinery would permit this to occur. By removing this check and balance we have created the monster that we currently have, with no means to reverse it, as repeal would require those very same senators to vote for the elimination of their own jobs!

Various abstention doctrines at the federal court level, which are appropriate in a nation where the federal government CANNOT shove down things into the state and local govenrment level, thus become abused to prevent the review and ultimately the destruction of these infringements or outright abrogation of our liberty.

Those who profit from this system, of course, have little reason to oppose it.....

 

[mars2u]

Genesis once bubbled...

Those who profit from this system, of course, have little reason to oppose it.....

Sorry...your opine was too long so I'll make my reply short:
I don't profit from it, as neither do alot of my fellow Americans, but still think it's the best system on the planet thus far.
Does it have problems, yes...and we can do better...but our amendments aren't "toilet paper". I wasn't born in this country, but I'm proud of it and what it represents and that I am accepted as a citizen.

I don't want to talk politics on a sports board

 

[Krisscuba]

It has always been a problem, I've seen jet skiers picking up dive flags wondering what they are. How are they to know. Most are kids and few states have any laws regarding boating classes. The ones that do only require it for new boat owners. Here in Florida it is the law as it is in any body of water contected to the ocean, international, or crossing state lines.

Most of us that have almost been run down by boated have wished that our safety on the beach had a sniper rifle. Oftened I've wanted to pull the drain plug out of the boat.

The only real solution may be to post a sign at the docks showing a dive flag and explaing that boaters must keep clear.

 

[JCKCSYCMD]

A couple of humorous (not really) events.

1. Years ago we were diving in and inland lake in Indiana, with low visibility and had three of us spread out hanging onto the float line doing a search.

All of a sudden the first, then 2nd, and I started being pulled up. Someone had attempted to pull float aboard and take off with it.

2. More recently we happend to be at a site where some wreck and light salvage classes were going on in Michigan. There were about three different schools there that day and they tied off floats above a few of the small sunken boats. Students could move from boat to boat following lines underneath and (hopefully) safely surface above wrecks on float lines. Being a weekend there was a lot of traffic.
Along came a Michigan DNR patrol boat, which in marine areas have more power than the local police. He anchored their grey patrol boat designed to sneak up on hunters, fisherman, etc, in the middle of the flags and proceeded to write violating boaters tickets all day. As divers we loved it.