I drank the koolaid!

[DwayneJ]

Dwayne, you should go do what we did - spend a couple hours with Karim. There were other options (some less expensive), and we evaluated many of them - I've actually been doing research on what DIR-compliant gear to buy ever since our DIR day in Laguna. In the end we weighed everything we learned and decided to go with Halcyon. Quality (an example: the interior bladder of the wing) was one selling point, but there were others as well.

It's definitely not the cheapest option, and I can't necessary say that the advantages of Halcyon are fully worth the higher price. But we happen to be doing okay financially right now (we're both working), and decided to take the plunge and pay the higher price. If we had to be more budget-conscious, we would have gone a different way and I'm sure been very happy. There are some excellent choices out there.

Money for scuba is not a concern for me so I wanted to understand what was special about Halcyon given a steel back plate, continuous webbing, and D rings don't magically get better when you stick a logo on them.

I have been diving BP/W from day one (OMS) and am interested DIR hose routing... I'm also interested in side mounting my tanks and I would like to understand how DIR supports side mount given side mount is gaining traction in cave diving as a safe alternative to back mounted tanks.

Halcyon is good gear but is no better or worse than the many other manufacturers.

Dwayne

 

[Rainer]

Now we see dozens of divers with fewer than 500 dives calling themselves DIR because they spin around on scooters, hold perfect trim in mid water and spend thousands on gear, just to make the same dives as Joe Diver in his cheap BC and aluminum 80. I frequently see divers on the Giant Stride and Island Diver jumping the Haggerty's Crane at 55 feet and the Avalon in 67 feet using doubles, 80 cu ft stages, HID lights and scooters. They then write reports about how much fun they had with their group of like-minded divers, but none of them can identify a single animal they saw. I question why they are even diving. Sometimes they post videos of Channel Islands trips, but the entire video is of other divers waving to the camera or hovering in place, looking into oblivion.

If you really want to get something out of diving and become a better diver, the best advice I can give is to dive more often and find an interest that scuba enhances, whether it's marine biology, photography or working underwater.

These types of posts just baffle me. I just can't see the point. Not only are they inaccurate (as detailed below), but their entire premise is "dive for what you find interesting, but let me bash what you find interesting"...

In any case, I just got back from a Channel Island trip with a bunch of "DIR" divers (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/socal/357229-epic-conditions-catalina-10-23-a.html). Many of us were wearing doubles, and some of us even had scooters. Yet over half the boat is Reef Check certified (and actively participating in RC surveys this year), two more volunteer for SM Bay Keepers, and another two are REEF certified. Just about all of us are avid underwater naturalists. If we wore doubles, it's because we were doing dives that required them or as practice (in hopes of one day doing such dives). No one I know dives doubles because it's "cool". They're a PITA, but they do have their place. As for scooters, I make no apologies, they're FUN. Big lights (HIDs) are useful for seeing in bright conditions and for keeping teams together (especially relevant once scooters are introduced); big batteries help for trips where you're doing 3-4 dives / day. No one brought a stage on this last trip, but from small boats with no compressor (e.g. Island Diver, Yellow Boat, etc) they're a nice way of getting two dives off one set of doubles (where the doubles might be useful for independent reasons). Pretty sure the two videos I posted from this past weekend show plenty of marine life, but they do also show my friends. In the end, they're a product of what I find interesting and fun.

That you seem to be so hung up on what others find interesting and fun is pretty silly. Enjoy your diving. I know we enjoy ours.

 

[fnfalman]

Wow, Phil, I gotta say this is kind of a buzz kill. Was that what you intended?

I can't speak for any other divers who refer to themselves as DIR. I can only speak for myself. I am not qualified to say what is or is not "DIR". And maybe after I've completed Fundies and passed, I still wouldn't qualify as DIR, according to George Irvine's standards. In fact I'm sure I wont.

But I can share the reasons I'm choosing to do this. I have no intention of ever going into a cave, or even a wreck. Not interested in overhead environments. I probably will never want to go tech - I doubt I'll ever even dive in doubles. I DO have interests in my diving far beyond the "team" aspects of diving - although I see strong benefits to that concept. I am way more interested in seeing critters - that's my main draw in diving. I also have recently gotten into underwater photography - I don't post my photos here because frankly I suck compared to some of you, so I post my photos on my Facebook page where my non-diving friends and family go berserk telling me what an awesome photographer I am. Hell they think shots of Spanish Shawls are the coolest thing ever.

The true reason I'm taking Fundies is to become a better, and safer, diver. I'm about to hit dive #200, and I still struggle with certain aspects (not going to say what - now I'm afraid I'm going to get a classic SB drubbing). I've read up on all of my options for continuing my dive training, and the class that appeals to me most is GUE Fundamentals. I tried diving with a bp/w, and loved the feel of it, and believe that a GUE Fundies course will best help me to learn the proper way of using that gear configuration.

I don't want to take a bunch of PADI courses, racking up the certs to improve individual aspects of my diving. I prefer the idea of one, intense course that blends it all together in a holistic approach. I'm sure there are aspects of the course that are overkill for the type of diving I intend to do. But I don't see that as a problem - better to be over-prepared than under.

I also find the social aspect of it appealing - a bunch of divers with the same dive philosophy. Not because I want to think I'm *better* than everyone else - hell I've been "Doing It Wrong" for four years now, and have never had a problem with it. I was actually completely kidding when I said I wanted to "join the in crowd". It was a joke.

After I take Fundies, I will gladly NOT claim to be "DIR". But I do hope to be a better diver, more comfortable in the water, more comfortable in my gear, with better skills. Not so I can float around and marvel about how cool we all look - but so I can enjoy my dives better, looking at cool critters, taking photos, and even occasionally bug-hunting. Most of my dives are going to be with my husband anyway - after 26 years of marriage, I don't think I need to take a Fundies class to impress him.

I can't help but wonder what your intention was in posting this. What it DOES do is make me want to avoid Dive Matrix or Diver.net like the plague, because I've been slaughtered over there with posts like this before. It's friendlier here (usually).

I agree and disagree with Phil.

I think that many people get too caught up with being and sounding cool than being divers and that's why they pursue technical diving aspects so that they can stick their noses up in the air and poopooing "lesser" divers. So many people who just got their certs, have a dozen or so dives in and already wanted to talk tech this, tech that, DIR this, DIR that.

I think that a lot of basic scuba techniques can be perfected by mentorship along with lots of practice and not by having to take fancy classes (GUE, TDI, SDI, NAUI, PADI, et al).

At the same time, I also think that there are all sorts of ways to enjoy diving. If doing a horizontal trim ascend with your buddy hand-in-hand is a kick for you, then by all means. If zooming around doing barrel rolls on scooters is fun, then knock yourself out. If strapping on a bunch of tanks for deco is your thing, then go for it. Back kick, frog kick, helicopter kick - they're all good.

And if a person were to want to expand his or her dive education horizon, that's even better. I think that it's swell the both of you to do this class together.

Also, a Fundies/Advanced Nitrox/Trimix/Deco/Cave/Wreck cert doesn't automatically make one immuned either. I think that people when they start racking up trainings, they take things for granted because they are now better armed and better educated. Scuba Diving Magazine's February 2010 article talked about a tech diver who died because he forgot to switch to the proper gas mix at the bottom. He was trained, and so was his buddy but neither were trained by the same agencies and his buddy was an insta-buddy. They didn't recognize each other's hand signals and got separated. That was one issue, the other issue was the dead diver was recently certified in tech diving and got task overloaded, got in over his head and forgot his training.

And in the end, I just want to say that Halcyon rocks!!! I love the Infinity and I don't care if it has failure points or more expensive or unnecessary when compared to a Hog harness.

 

[Blackwood]

The ones I see on the West Coast with scooters in open water, monkey diving and doing barrel rolls are simply playing under water.

I fail to see the problem.

 

[Codyjp]

DIR is the best thing that ever happened to cave diving. So many divers died or had near-death experiences that a unified protocal had to be implemented. Then someone decided that if it works in caves, it would work just as well in open water. Now we see dozens of divers with fewer than 500 dives calling themselves DIR because they spin around on scooters, hold perfect trim in mid water and spend thousands on gear, just to make the same dives as Joe Diver in his cheap BC and aluminum 80. I frequently see divers on the Giant Stride and Island Diver jumping the Haggerty's Crane at 55 feet and the Avalon in 67 feet using doubles, 80 cu ft stages, HID lights and scooters. They then write reports about how much fun they had with their group of like-minded divers, but none of them can identify a single animal they saw. I question why they are even diving. Sometimes they post videos of Channel Islands trips, but the entire video is of other divers waving to the camera or hovering in place, looking into oblivion.
Most will say they took Fundies because OW training is woefully watered down. I have found that you get out of a class what you put into it. For the price of an OW class, there is no way you will get an exhaustive session of back kicks, valve drills and perfect buoyancy, however you can still learn to dive and perfect those skills as needed.
As George Irvine said, there are only a handfull of divers he would consider DIR. The ones I see on the West Coast with scooters in open water, monkey diving and doing barrel rolls are simply playing under water. They could do the same dive in a large pool or a lake.
If you really want to get something out of diving and become a better diver, the best advice I can give is to dive more often and find an interest that scuba enhances, whether it's marine biology, photography or working underwater.

Dang. After further review I didn't have any fun at all last week. My bad.

 

[Rainer]

I take it Phil thinks diving has to be strictly regimented and unfun. He really ought to consider DIR as it'd let him free himself to have more fun.

I fail to see the problem.

 

[Blackwood]

I take it Phil thinks diving has to be strictly regimented and unfun. He really ought to consider DIR as it'd let him free himself to have more fun.

I mean, I GUESS you could dive without a post-doc in biology, but I don't know why you would want to.


Phil - different people like different things. I like wrecks and structure. Do I enjoy seeing aquatic life? Absolutely. Do I enjoy identifying it? No, it loses some of the mystery that way. It's convenient to know what's what when people inevitably ask, but a pretty fish is no less pretty for not knowing the species.

 

[Rainer]

You answered my question with your comment on the "interior quality of the wing" which to me reads HWD did a great sales job on you. Halcyon is good gear but is no better or worse than the many other manufacturers.

It's just not the case that all manufacturers are created equal. In particular, even on something as seemingly simple as a BP/W, the various manufacturers offer different features/options that for some will make a meaningful difference.

For example, I really like how flat the DSS plates are for singles, and Tobin's weight plates are a great way of adding weight directly over the lungs. His no-STA-needed design is also a real plus in my book.

For doubles, I prefer a plate with a greater bend angle (so it can accommodate a pouch for a lift bag; that's just how *I* like to carry it). I've been really happy with my H plate in that regard.

Some are going to like the infinity (adjustable) harness, others aren't going to care.

Some are going to want a really short stock inflator hose (H, DSS), others something longer (OMS, DR).

Some care about the durability of the wing itself (inner and outer bladders), others don't.

Some want pull dumps, others don't.

Some want wings with extra lift at the hips, others up high.

Some like black, others colors.

Some want comfort harnesses, others something simpler.

Some want an OPV that accommodates a thicker cord (DSS), others want that cord smaller and to come stock with a ball at the end.

In the end, I think it's great that we have so many options today. To suggest, however, that those options/differences don't exist (or that they aren't meaningful for some), just isn't accurate.

 

[DwayneJ]

It's just not the case that all manufacturers are created equal. In particular, even on something as seemingly simple as a BP/W, the various manufacturers offer different features/options that for some will make a meaningful difference.

For example, I really like how flat the DSS plates are for singles, and Tobin's weight plates are a great way of adding weight directly over the lungs. His no-STA-needed design is also a real plus in my book.

For doubles, I prefer a plate with a greater bend angle (so it can accommodate a pouch for a lift bag; that's just how *I* like to carry it). I've been really happy with my H plate in that regard.

Some are going to like the infinity (adjustable) harness, others aren't going to care.

Some are going to want a really short stock inflator hose (H, DSS), others something longer (OMS, DR).

Some care about the durability of the wing itself (inner and outer bladders), others don't.

Some want pull dumps, others don't.

Some want wings with extra lift at the hips, others up high.

Some like black, others colors.

Some want comfort harnesses, others something simpler.

Some want an OPV that accommodates a thicker cord (DSS), others want that cord smaller and to come stock with a ball at the end.

In the end, I think it's great that we have so many options today. To suggest, however, that those options/differences don't exist (or that they aren't meaningful for some), just isn't accurate.

I agree with you 100%.. which is why I could not understand what the big deal about halcyon was.

Dwayne

 

[Leejnd]

Okay, well this thread totally did NOT go the way I was expecting it to. I was simply celebrating my recent purchase, and my choice to go this route in my ongoing dive education. I did not mean for this to turn into any kind of pissing match, and I'm sorry that it did.

I'm very excited about my future as a diver. I'm excited I bought a bunch of cool new gear, and I can't wait to try it out. I'm excited about improving my dive skills. I'm excited about making new diver friends. I think that my improved skills will help me to better enjoy the diving that I do, both here at home and on my dive trips. We're going to Costa Rica in December, and are in the pre-planning stages of trips to French Polynesia and the Caribbean. I expect that my improved skills will allow us to enjoy those trips even more.

That's kinda what I wanted to talk about in here. If someone wants to debate the value of DIR, let's start another thread for that.

You answered my question with your comment on the "interior quality of the wing" which to me reads HWD did a great sales job on you. Halcyon is good gear but is no better or worse than the many other manufacturers.

I resent your implication that we bought Halcyon because we naively succumbed to a slick "sales job". I strongly disagree, and will ask you to not say that again. It's simply not true.

My husband and I did quite a bit of research, and made the choice that we felt was best based on the merits of the equipment, not the salesman. I spent over an hour on the phone with Tobin George, who is also an excellent salesman. We visited a dive shop in Ventura and explored other brands, including Hollis, which actually came in a close second for me, mainly because of the clip on the harness allowing for easy doffing. I struggled to get out of the Halcyon when I tried it, but once Karim taught me the right way to do it, I felt better about it and the clip was no longer a key selling point. (Hollis, by the way, was very close in price to Halcyon.)

Yes, the interior bladder was a selling point. We have our own sailboat and gearing up on it can get rather challenging in our small cockpit. We discussed the possibility of dropping things on the wing - the interior bladder of the Halcyon appears less likely to be punctured should something like that happen. So that moved Halcyon up a notch for us. But that wasn't the only selling point - that was just an example. We simply liked the Halcyon gear better. We have the money - we can afford it. Why NOT buy the gear that we liked better?

I will not go into all the other reasons - this isn't a thread about which gear to choose. I just wish to make the point, as clearly as possible, that we strongly believe we made an educated decision based on our preferences, and did not mindlessly fall into the trap of a slick salesman. I find that suggestion to be offensive.

Now...back to the fun...