I found CO in tanks

[iain/hsm]

I don't know what was the process - but the remaining air his tanks were analyzed the word was passed that all who had the tanks filled in Ensenada to immediately drain them --which we all did.

The Rix compressor was WW 11 surplus from naval boat which had been modified for filling tanks and was lubricated with soap --High flash point oil had not been introduced - CO was a constant problem

As I recall that horrible tragedy almost 60 years ago I drained all my tanks and had then filled a a local dive shop

SDM

Sam
What you describe was not a horrible tragedy but the inevitable outcome of gross negligence and sheer stupidity.

Ex WW2 surplus………modified for filling tanks……..lubricated with soap.
Located behind a seat in a WW2 surplus ambulance ……… driven by a PTO
air intake on a 10 foot pole

Not withstanding the party down for a 7000 lb anchor lift in 150 FSW of water column while jacking about with 55 gallon drums to the anchor line.

You drain all the tanks after analysis just as a precaution in all these situations but for you to intimate that the cause was because of the Rix is stretching it in the extreme and I’m being polite.

Using a ship engine soap lubricated compressor for breathing air what do you expect? Soap that washes cleaner?

This self inflicted outcome is nothing to do with the Rix but by way of sheer incompetence and ignorance of the divers themselves.

 

[kelemvor]

Sam
What you describe was not a horrible tragedy but the inevitable outcome of gross negligence and sheer stupidity.

Ex WW2 surplus………modified for filling tanks……..lubricated with soap.
Located behind a seat in a WW2 surplus ambulance ……… driven by a PTO
air intake on a 10 foot pole

Not withstanding the party down for a 7000 lb anchor lift in 150 FSW of water column while jacking about with 55 gallon drums to the anchor line.

You drain all the tanks after analysis just as a precaution in all these situations but for you to intimate that the cause was because of the Rix is stretching it in the extreme and I’m being polite.

Using a ship engine soap lubricated compressor for breathing air what do you expect? Soap that washes cleaner?

This self inflicted outcome is nothing to do with the Rix but by way of sheer incompetence and ignorance of the divers themselves.

The year was 1960...

 

[iain/hsm]

The fact that "The year was 1960" is the one fact no one is disputing.

 

[seadragonbahamas]

Most compressors designed for compressing scuba breathing air (at least modern ones) useing high flashpoint oils are extremely unlikely to produce CO from compression. The most likely source of CO contamination is that the intake air is already contaminated. In our industrial society the air itself is not as pure as it could be. The after compression filter system has absorbers and catalysts to remove most of the ingested contaminants. If you are finding CO in your tank air the filter pack has probably exceeded it's life. This is a maintenance issue.

 

[Kohanbash]

I know some people want me to name the shop, but I am not comfortable doing that. I think the important thing to take away from this is that it could happen at any shop at anytime. @DandyDon has alluded to this on several occasions. We should be analyzing our tanks.

Another option would be to specify the city, state, region, etc.. So that local divers can PM for the info.

 

[iain/hsm]

Most compressors designed for compressing scuba breathing air (at least modern ones) useing high flashpoint oils are extremely unlikely to produce CO from compression. The most likely source of CO contamination is that the intake air is already contaminated. In our industrial society the air itself is not as pure as it could be. The after compression filter system has absorbers and catalysts to remove most of the ingested contaminants. If you are finding CO in your tank air the filter pack has probably exceeded it's life. This is a maintenance issue.

Utter rubbish.
The Flashpoint of an average scuba compressor mineral based oil under ASTM D92 is 230C
The Flashpoint of a typical synthetic Diester (Anderol 555) again tested under ASTM D92 is 230C
What is the difference? None. Look it up. What you are believing is the sales blurb in that a retailer can advertise that the typical flashpoint temperature result can be used rather than the minimum. If so its 274C for the synthetic.
That’s a difference of 44C about the temperature of a cup of luke warm coffee.
Not much of a safety margin now is it.

Now please explain your term “most ingested contaminants” I’m intrigued as to the magnitude of your filter system. If this is the level of compressor understanding with an average American dive charter then help us all. You have been mislead. For a better understanding of where you are with your compressor, first find a clear windy day, remove the chemical filter from your dive charter compressor and fill a tank. Then breath the compressed air. Let us know how you get on. Now we have established the culprit of your contamination we can move forward in discussing in detail the limitations of your filtration. Others here can do the same trick with there Rix SA-6 run with no chemical filtration and come back with no difference in the resultant breathing air quality than the fresh air that went down the air intake hose in the first place. Go figure

 

[Sam Miller III]

@iain/hsm n/
"Sam
What you describe was not a horrible tragedy but the inevitable outcome of gross negligence and sheer stupidity.

Ex WW2 surplus………modified for filling tanks……..lubricated with soap.
Located behind a seat in a WW2 surplus ambulance ……… driven by a PTO
air intake on a 10 foot pole

Not withstanding the party down for a 7000 lb anchor lift in 150 FSW of water column while jacking about with 55 gallon drums to the anchor line.

You drain all the tanks after analysis just as a precaution in all these situations but for you to intimate that the cause was because of the Rix is stretching it in the extreme and I’m being polite.

Using a ship engine soap lubricated compressor for breathing air what do you expect? Soap that washes cleaner?

This self inflicted outcome is nothing to do with the Rix but by way of sheer incompetence and ignorance of the divers themselves."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I say ole chap ....

Delighted !
Absolutely Delighted to have your comments on an event that occurred in the colonies by a bunch of rabble rousing divers almost 60 years ago.

I suspect If you were alive in 1960 you were not participating in diving. All except two of us who dove with "sheer incompetence and ignorance" are now diving on that big reef in the sky. The pioneering divers who yanked the Anchor from the bottom were diving in home made wet suits, (and in my case a homemade mask) with out SPGs or floatation equipment have gone to that big reef would have also appreciated that some modern late model tube sucking bubble blower declare that they were diving with "sheer incompetence and ignorance"



sdm

 

[iain/hsm]

@iain/hsm n/
I say ole chap ....
Delighted !
Absolutely Delighted to have your comments on an event that occurred in the colonies by a bunch of rabble rousing divers almost 60 years ago.

I suspect If you were alive in 1960 you were not participating in diving. All except two of us who dove with "sheer incompetence and ignorance" are now diving on that big reef in the sky. The pioneering divers who yanked the Anchor from the bottom were diving in home made wet suits, (and in my case a homemade mask) with out SPGs or floatation equipment have gone to that big reef would have also appreciated that some modern late model tube sucking bubble blower declare that they were diving with "sheer incompetence and ignorance"
sdm

Sam.
No your not delighted far from it so if I have offended you in any way then I apologise.
However as much as I love your tales of “flower power” diving in the 60’s it does not negate the fact that this was a total cock up from a bunch of foolish incompetents and nothing to do with a Rix Compressor. Yet you directly implied in your post that the compressor was the cause however foolish the farmhand conversion that they attempted was a provable and a more probable cause.

Nor for that matter have you established it was CO any more than I, or that the 7000 lb anchor at 150FSW may have had some small influence in the outcome of this divers death. Should I add, the American term to use here “Blowhards” We have moved on from the 60’s we have new incompetents in diving with their wishful thinking and clueless ideas. Peace Love, and all that jazz man.

 

[2airishuman]

Sam
What you describe was not a horrible tragedy but the inevitable outcome of gross negligence and sheer stupidity.

You're on a roll, Iain. Tell us what you think of all the people in 1960 driving around without seatbelts, in cars without airbags. Oh, and how they're all grossly negligent for not having GFCIs in the guest bathroom.

This self inflicted outcome is nothing to do with the Rix but by way of sheer incompetence and ignorance of the divers themselves.

Well, thank goodness that someone is here to clarify that it wasn't the compressor's fault.

 

[seadragonbahamas]

Utter rubbish.
The Flashpoint of an average scuba compressor mineral based oil under ASTM D92 is 230C
The Flashpoint of a typical synthetic Diester (Anderol 555) again tested under ASTM D92 is 230C
What is the difference? None. Look it up. What you are believing is the sales blurb in that a retailer can advertise that the typical flashpoint temperature result can be used rather than the minimum. If so its 274C for the synthetic.
That’s a difference of 44C about the temperature of a cup of luke warm coffee.
Not much of a safety margin now is it.

Now please explain your term “most ingested contaminants” I’m intrigued as to the magnitude of your filter system. If this is the level of compressor understanding with an average American dive charter then help us all. You have been mislead. For a better understanding of where you are with your compressor, first find a clear windy day, remove the chemical filter from your dive charter compressor and fill a tank. Then breath the compressed air. Let us know how you get on. Now we have established the culprit of your contamination we can move forward in discussing in detail the limitations of your filtration. Others here can do the same trick with there Rix SA-6 run with no chemical filtration and come back with no difference in the resultant breathing air quality than the fresh air that went down the air intake hose in the first place. Go figure

To each his own opinion, but I consider 44*C a significantly higher temperature safety margin percentage wise over standard oil and providing less frictional heat in the mechnical parts of the compressor system. While the heat of compression is still the same. Due to heat of compression I prefer the 4 stage compressor superior as it has more interstage cooling. Again the creation of heat is the enemy both for creating oil combustion contaminates and mechanical deterioration. I use Bauer K14 compressors (we have 4 of them) and they are derated to 7cfm (the original design rating Bauer had on the K14 at 5 hp, 900 rpm) . The later K14's were pushed to over 10cfm and 10-12 hp requiring much more heat dissipation. Again keep the heat down and you have eliminated 90% of the problems. A large squirrel cage blower over the compressor also helps eliminate the heat. In addition to the interstage separators there is a high presure reciever water separator before an addtional cooling coil. Then into the filter bank of 1, another separator stack, 2 a molecular sieve stack and 3 finally into an activated charcoal/hopcalite stack before reaching the tank fill section.

Now to address the term "most ingested contaminants " ; as per your scenario of filling a dive tank with air derived directly from the compressor (not a good idea as all compressors produce particulate output such as water condensate and on oil lubricated compressors oil/water condensation in small amounts), but the air itself should be the same as the air that went in unless the compressor is overheated or defective. So I am referrng to ingested contaminants as such things as car engine exhaust (lots of CO) gas engine exhaust (it could be anything running rear the air intake such as a pressure cleaner or lawnmower) or other contaminants such as fresh paint carrier evaporates or even the dry cleaner shop in the same mall as a dive shop. In today' world the air outside is not 100% clean air. The small amounts of contaminants ingested with normal 99.9% outside breathing air will be taken out by the filter system if it is properly designed. (Hopcalite and it' breathern convert the CO out of the mix). but the filters will only absorb or convert a limited amount so if you are ingesting pollted air into the compressor intake the filtration can become overwhemed or have a shortened functional life.

So 3 things. Don't run your system hot or poorly ventilated. Don't suck in poor or bad site into the compressor. And keep up the filtration system repacking.

I breath my own compressed air, so I make sure it is the best it can be. I have 47 years and over 5000 dives on my own compressed air filled tanks, and it is still fun.