Improving Ascent/ Safety Stop Practices

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RTodd

Contributor
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Location
Houston
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First a disclaimer: This is a general discussion. Most of the people I dive with feel that doing anything I say will get you bent and urge you not to actually try any of this at home.

And, some ground rules. I want to try to keep this away from too technical of a discussion of slow compartments, fast compartments and other model related stuff. The decompression models are a great foundation to start with, but they don't actually answer any real world questions. Plus, while I have had the fortune to discuss this kind of thing with some of our real current pioneers, I am not qualified to accurate describe what they have told me.

This is aimed at recreational open water dives. But, keep in mind that all dives are "decompression dives." However, on recreational dives, it is safe to perform the decompression at 1 atmosphere (the surface) rather than at depth. (To avoid exceeding the maximum M-values of the models. There, I broke the rule, hopefully it is out of my system now.) So, follow along with the technical decompression stuff, I am going somewhere that applies to "no-deco" dives.

Background (AKA, even the stuff DAN gets right). Everyone has been taught to make a safety stop at 15' for 3-5 minutes. This does reduce the risk of decompression sickness. However, the common misconception places too much emphasis on this being like a safety "decompression" stop where you are getting some great benefit of offgassing by breathing air for 3 minutes at 15 feet. You probably aren't. In all likelihood, the primary benefit to your average open water diver is it forces them to halt their trident missle like ascent to the surface and induces a slower ascent.

Some Theory (unavoidable, I hate it too). In theory there is some super slow, moving at 1 micro meter per minute ascent rate that would give you the pefrect decompression from a 500' dive. However, this would vary at each depth and would require ridiculous decompression tables, so the models use 10' increments. Once it is safe to move up 10', you move up to the next level. (Historical digression, the old Orca computers used to give the actual depth ceiling. It was hilarious to watch people finish "deco" in 2' of water with their valves breaching the surface.)

The "new" safety stop. Open water divers are starting to pick up the "deep stop" theories that technical divers have been using for years. There are numerous iterations of this, 2 atm off of the bottom, some percentage of your bottom atm, etc. However, like the safety stop, this has often been simplified to 1/2 your max depth for a few minutes. Once again, this helps by slowing the ascent even more. But, 1/2 max isn't really optimum for any square profile dive.

Deep stops work best on deep helium dives. They miraculously allow you to greatly shorten shallower stops. This is because helium ongasses and offgasses so much more quickly. So, you can start off-gassing more efficiently with a lower gradient (Tehcnical term again, the difference between the partial pressure of the inert gas (anything non-oxygen) dissovled in your skull and the pressure of the inert gas you are breathing.) These deeper stops help prevent any "pre-dcs" problems on the shallower portions of deco and making this deco more efficient. This is because, while you can generally "successfully" decompress without these deep stops by staying longer at shallower depths, you body has some pre-symptomatic dcs that slows down the process and makes it take longer. Plus, it does do a little more damage this way. If you can prevent this pre-symptomatic stuff, the time spent on shallower stops can be reduced.

Now, for the recreational diver using nitrox (stop using air once you have decen bouyancy skills) the bad news is that, helium is a much easier gas to decompress off of so you get less benefit from "deep" stops. However, you do get a benefit. Remember, in theory, a super slow ascent is the safest way to dive. This, is what deep stops and safety stops are really trying to get you to do.

So, how can you improve your dive safety. I can't help there remember, listening to me will get you bent. (The following assumes dives 100' or shallower, so the "in generals" get even less accurate on deeper dives. After 100', I would encourage using helium for the safety in the reduction of narcosis and decompression risk.) In general, and that is a big in general, you can come 20-30 feet off of your max bottom depth at 30 feet per minute. A great way to help do this is to make 20 second stops every 10 feet. Once you have come off the bottom your 20-40 feet, you want to start moving at 10' per minute. Making, a 1 minute stop every 10' to help control this. Once you get somewhere in the 40-10' range, depending on your dive, you may want to start making slightly longer stops. On most recreational dives, I will do a few minutes slowly going from 20-10'. A nice slow ascent from 10' is also beneficial if conditions permit. Here, you just have to do it slow. Using the 1 minute stop thing at 0' won't help much.

This can be made much simpler by just planning and diving multi-level dives. Not maxing your time at 100' and planning to spend a portion of your dive at 70', then at 50' obviates the need for some of the steps discussed above. This is best learned by feel. Once you start getting it right, you will feel much better after dives.

Soapbox. I hope the discussion doesn't focus on this. My big problems with computers being "ridden" up is people don't focus on the slow gradual ascent that can be achieved by a multi-level dive or the focused slow ascent procedures discussed above. There is more of a, "oh crap, two minutes from deco, let's bolt up 30' to add more time mentality that is actually counterproductive to a safer ascent. There is nothing wrong with using a computer if you follow the procedures discussed above since its ndl will, in general, be very conservative with the proper diving practices. For this topic though, UP just posted several old threads that cover it in massive detail and there is no need to rehash it.
 
So you are advocating a deco stop like profile if not a multi-level if possible by bottom topography - this is not new, see UP's big tick discussion (twice as long above 2ATA than below 3ATA) for an example. I understand the riding thing as well, but slowly ascending and doing mini-stops cant hurt for sure. Why do your buddies think you will get bent - what rate are you ascending your 10ft increments - 30fpm or 100fpm? I usually put in a couple of stops and try to ascend around 5-10fpm, sometimes hardly even registers on my computer as an ascent - i prefer the multi-levels though than just a slow ascent.

Or did i miss the main aim of your post by the length and the little caveats in it that distracted me?
 
simbrooks:
So you are advocating a deco stop like profile if not a multi-level if possible by bottom topography - this is not new, see UP's big tick discussion (twice as long above 2ATA than below 3ATA) for an example. I understand the riding thing as well, but slowly ascending and doing mini-stops cant hurt for sure. Why do your buddies think you will get bent - what rate are you ascending your 10ft increments - 30fpm or 100fpm? I usually put in a couple of stops and try to ascend around 5-10fpm, sometimes hardly even registers on my computer as an ascent - i prefer the multi-levels though than just a slow ascent.

Or did i miss the main aim of your post by the length and the little caveats in it that distracted me?

Yeah, it was way too long. There is nothing new there at all. Sounds like you are doing everything you need to do.

The main point is that all it takes are really slow ascents and this is more beneficial than the same amount of time spent at 15'. Same as in the long thread UP highlighted the other day just focusing on the leaving the bottom part. I was trying to keep some other threads on topic by moving this here. UPs method works great too, but is not as practical on many non-shore dives.

The bent thing was just a disclaimer for purposes of this discussion.

To get 10' per minute when going from say 60' to 50' you start the clock at 60' and wait at 50' until 1 minute has elapsed from the time you left 60'.
 
Oddly enough RTodd, I started on this topic with regards to Chuck's accident, in the "Accident" Sub_forum (I think) and there was nothing but silence from then on....

Unfortunately, everybody cries about the "undeserved hit", Mike F basically says "Look man, you did SOMETHING wrong". Then I suggest a way of looking at Chuck's asent profile as a suggestion of what, IMO opinion were some "flags" if you will, of what I see wrong with his profile, and infact, most Rec divers profiles in general.

Silence.....

Seems as though talking stricter "theory" meets with little progress in the end game.

I'm quite sadened with it all, since an ounce of prevention is worth a TON of cure. It seems most would rather run for the band-aid after the fact.

It seems we're on the same page, from what I've read of your posts. I would do things slightly different, but it's not worth the minor variance to even talk about.

I know I've been pounding on people that do Rec dives to do it using Nitrox, as the benefits can be huge. I even suggested somewhere that Chuck add that to his list of rules from now on.

Nitrox with an ALU80 (To keep one from extending bottom times) would be a huge step in the safety issue, then lets slow most everyone down a bit on the ascents.

Apologies if that sounds too much like hand-holding, but it'll save a few holidays from being a complete bust!

BTW: Chuck my buddy, I ain't baggin' on ya at all. I make a clear cut destinction between the person and the diving. I'm just looking at the "what can we do to make it safer" angle, which doesn't include, in my mind, slamming the diver that got bent. A buddy of mine did last fall, and I'll be honest, I NEVER think of that incident when I speak to him or think about him and our dives to come. To me, there is no stigma attached, and the discussion is by no means a personal attack.
 
RTodd:
Yeah, it was way too long. There is nothing new there at all. Sounds like you are doing everything you need to do.

The main point is that all it takes are really slow ascents and this is more beneficial than the same amount of time spent at 15'. Same as in the long thread UP highlighted the other day just focusing on the leaving the bottom part. I was trying to keep some other threads on topic by moving this here. UPs method works great too, but is not as practical on many non-shore dives.

The bent thing was just a disclaimer for purposes of this discussion.

To get 10' per minute when going from say 60' to 50' you start the clock at 60' and wait at 50' until 1 minute has elapsed from the time you left 60'.

So, let me just summarize something for clarity here based on my understanding of what you just wrote. I'll try to fill in a few white spots to get them on the table because people will be doing that anyway and it's better to get the assumptions cleared up.

If you're at 100ft and you're close to your NDL and want to ascend. You go:

100
90 - 20 seconds
80 - 20 seconds
70 - 20 seconds
60 - 1 min
50 - 1 min
40 - 1 min
30 - 1 min
20 - 2 min
15 - 1 min (my assumption)
10 - 2-3 min (we used to call this a safety stop)

and then you didn't specify it but a nice slow ascent from 10 might look like

8 - 30 seconds
5 - 1 min
3 - 30 seconds
0 - 1 min hidden stop

So from a 100ft dive your ascent is costing you 12 - 14 min of which only 2 min is deeper than 60 ft. Looks good.

Assuming this isn't a little overboard let's just take it a step further. Let's assume a diver with a well charged AL-80 and a SAC of 15 litres / min (.45 or so?) does this ascent. How much pressure will he need....

(let's just do it in our head because I don't feel like crunching the numbers right now)

It looks like the avg depth during the ascent is about 30 ft give or take or 2ata to use a nice round number. So our diver is going to use about 420 litres of gas on the way up from 100. In an AL-80 that's about 19% of his gas or a little less than 40 bar to use a rough number or something like 600 psi.

If our diver also wants a 25% reserve in his tank at the end of the dive then the gas he needs for ascent is about 45% in rough numbers or 90 bar / 1300 psi.

So he needs to turn his dive and start ascending at a little over 1300 psi.

So totally ignoring the descent then our diver with a 15 lpm SAC is breathing 10 bar or so (160 psi give or take) per min on the bottom which gives him a useable bottom time of 10 or 11 min max, in rough terms. (at least if I didn't make any major blunders in my finger-tip math).

So you're well away from the 20-25 min NDL you have at 100ft depending on what you're breathing.

In fact, if you took it a step further, then you'd reach the conclusion that our diver really needs a twin AL-80 to do this dive.

Would you reach the same conclusion?

I'm not trying to pick apart your post; I think these kinds of ascents are just fine..... However; when you look at the gas requirements it does add a different dimension to the idea of ascending like this, doesn't it.

R..
 
RTodd:
In theory there is some super slow, moving at 1 micro meter per minute ascent rate that would give you the perfect decompression . . . .
This seems reasonable, but:

From the article “Deep Stops” in Alert Diver May/June 2004:
“What is interesting, and not necessarily intuitive, is that an in-water stop with a relatively rapid ascent rate appears to be more effective at eliminating inert gas than a very slow ascent rate.”

This is consistent with a report in the UHMS Journal.

Our understanding of decompression continues to evolve. In the meantime, I like conservative. I like deep stops. I like Nitrox. I like hydration.
 
When you add gas management like that it does add another dimension to it... However I think RTodd was just trying to stress the importance of a slow ascent rate and how it is much more benificial compared to rocketing up to your safety stop to off-gas.
 
I think we can rationalize this until we're blue in the water, but I believe that his rationale was, in esence, that trimix is a better gas, but that it requires stricter offgassing techniques, which if you use Nitrox, you can achieve a similar result by slowing your ascent to 10 f/p/m.

I took a mini-hit leading a drift dive to 70 fsw, on 36%, having done 30 fpm ascent to 35 fsw, 1 min stop, 30 fpm ascent to 15 fsw, 4 min stop, and slow ascent from 15 fsw to the surface. So the point is, that deserved or undeserved, DCS does not discriminate and can hit the most careful diver. Fortunately my hit manifested itself after what was somewhat strenous physical activity that happened about 1 hr after the dive. It only caused extreme fatigue and it did not require a chamber ride, but the doctor classified it as a minor dcs hit solely because of the extreme fatigue that followed the dive.
 
Hi knotical> I addressed that in the thread I mentioned. I should try and find it again.

Basically what I said was "When you've hit your dive time at a given depth" GET OFF THE BOTTOM. Meaning, as you say, don't lolly-gag, as it's counter productive. Again, depending on the gas/depth/time this will vary, but I use a 50ft/min ascent to above the gas reversal depth (Not going to get into that here), and THEN I slow it down. The problem is, someone using arbitrary "Deep Stop" rules that are being taught, might just be ADDING to their nitrogen loading, all the while thinking they're being more cautious.

Nitrox may not be the holy grail, but it's damn close to rec depths and times, as it turns out. (Read: More forgiving of diver error, intentional or not).
 

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