Inconsistent message to new divers

[Cosmographer]

As a new diver, I am perceiving what seems to be an inconsistency among SB members regarding the level of responsibility expected of newly minted OW divers.

On one hand, most SB'ers emphasize that divers are responsible for their own safety. This becomes particularly apparent in the various threads about accidents or dangerous practices among dive ops. Inevitably, some SB veteran will chime in with a comment like "they received their certification, they should have known better than to trust the DM."

On the other hand, some SB'ers (often those very same vets described above) are eager to point out that OW (and even AOW) are just the beginning. Some go so far as to say that they are nothing more than intro courses and that these certifications are meaningless insofar as their ability to determine at least a minimum level of proficiency.

As an SB member, I agree with the former, but as a new diver, I agree with the latter. All else being equal, those who read boards such as this one are, imo, far more aware of best practices, risks, equipment, etc. than those who do not. Therefore, from our perspective as SB members, yes certified divers should be completely responsible for themselves. In fact one could make the argument that even prospective divers who are avid SB readers should know better than to trust their DM/Instructor.

However, as a new diver, I will also say that it is unrealistic and even to some degree elitist to expect new divers to ignore or disobey their DM/Instructor. Try to remember what it was like to be a brand new diver (yeah it's probably been awhile). There is a good chance that most of your dives immediately after getting your c-card were "trust me" dives.

And now for the flame-bait portion of my post: They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average. Veterans on SB are fond of saying or implying that new divers should heed the advice of those here who have thousands of dives and years of experience under their belt. And that is true enough. I've learned a ton just reading these boards over the past few months. But these same vets castigate new divers who put their trust in their DM, someone who probably has a similar level of experience as the SB vets and are practicing pro's.

The vast majority of divers (old and new) are not active members of SB or other diving forums. To expect a newbie with maybe 10-20 dives to argue about protocol and safety with a DM who has thousands of dives at that location is ludicrous. NOTE: I'm not saying that a newbie disagreeing with the DM is ludicrous - I'm saying it is ludicrous to EXPECT a newbie to have the courage, stubbornness, or confidence to do so. That kind of expectation is just not fair IMO. If a new OW told his DM that the dive plan was bad because of something he read on the internet, he might very well be laughed off the boat.

I do believe that it's good for new divers to confront DMs and dive ops who do not follow protocol. After all, complacency is probably the single biggest root cause of accidents (while I don't have the figures, I wouldn't be surprised if most accidents happen to more experienced divers - say maybe 50 dives or more). But as commendable as it may be for new divers to have the guts to stand up to the pro's, it should not be expected behavior (unless they've been reading SB!).

I don't really have a much of a point - this is just me observing out loud. But on a related note, I would love to see SB'ers stop blaming new divers for just about everything that goes wrong and apply a proportionate blame to the dive ops who take advantage of a new divers' naivete and lead them into potentially dangerous situations. I think we need to recognize that new divers who do not read SB or other forums probably have no clue that "trust me" dives are bad. You can't be responsible for what you don't know (or maybe you can - what do I know?)

Edit: So my 101st post ended up being potential flame-bait. Good thing this was posted in a flame-free zone! HA!

 

[bryce1993]

As an inexperienced diver (in comparison to other SB members, however perhaps not in comparison to my dive club members) I agree with you.
Nice post.

 

[Mike2Fst]

As a new OW diver, should you have any concerns rf are not comfortable with a dive plan, it is up to you to ultimately decide if you will make a dive or not, it's your life at stake and you may have family to support. If you're entering the water on with a feeling of "trust", maybe you should rethink the dive. On occasions when I dive with an insta-buddy, I have no qualms about asking about experience and asking to see a log book as some new divers are overly confident about their abilities and I would rather not lead them in deep over their heads, no pun intended. Diver training has change over the years as well, an OW diver trained in the 1980's has a better education than one who has been trained recently, IMO. All said and done, you need to be comfortable with a dive plan, it's best, IMO, to dive with someone who you have become familiar with, and abit from the tech diving community, assume you must finish the dive alone, can't tell you how many dive buddy teams I've seen loose contact with one another in my years of diving. Enjoy and be safe, always.

 

[lv2dive]

I would argue with a basic premise of your post .... it would be one thing if the DMs these new divers were relying on did in fact have the "thousands of dives" you were attributing to them... but they don't. I hope no one takes offense at this - but the DM designation means nothing to me. I don't know how many dives one has to have to with the different agencies to start a DM program, but I'm pretty sure it's less than hundred for most of them. Some of the worst divers I've seen are DMs. Some of the best are. Either way, it's a crap shoot; hence, that designation is meaningless to me. So saying newbies should put their trust in DMs just doesn't cut it for me, end of story. YMMV.

 

[CamG]

Greetings Cosmo and I always attempt to treat ALL divers whatever level with the same respect I wish to be treated with.
That does not mean that I will always comment on a skill issue unless asked but if there is a serious safety issue you can bet I am going to say something.
The manor in which I say will be determined, "tempered" by the severity of the risk but ALWAYS with respect and politeness.
We are adults and sometimes children but always deserve to be treated with fairly.

Should you question DM's, Dive Instructors, Dive ops.?
Yes but remember the RESPECT issue and be able to handle the consequences if they get ruffled.
I have seen it go both ways and been in it both ways, things do not always go as planned.
Communication in diving is a critical issue and as in our day to day communication we have to learn to be concise, and very clear sometimes qualifying our words.
Sometimes it is not what we say, but the way or manor in which we say it.

Apples are apples / oranges are oranges, Experienced divers are experienced / New divers are new divers!
Just that simple, IMHO I have heard both ask great questions / bring up good points and I have heard some absolute rubbish as well.
It just depends on the individual but beware the machismo ego it is out there seeking whom ever it can overtake!
Humility has a great value in many dive situations and there are those out there who still try to rise above the norm!

ÇamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[wrybosome]

I do believe that it's good for new divers to confront DMs and dive ops who do not follow protocol. After all, complacency is probably the single biggest root cause of accidents (while I don't have the figures, I wouldn't be surprised if most accidents happen to more experienced divers - say maybe 50 dives or more). But as commendable as it may be for new divers to have the guts to stand up to the pro's, it should not be expected behavior (unless they've been reading SB!).

IIRC from the last DAN report the peak of the fatalities vs years diving curve was at 10+ years, but it wasn't possible to separate out people with truly extensive experience vs people doing a few dives every couple of years on their vacation. Certainly it's not hard to think of tremendous divers who have died through preventable problems that may not have killed someone a little more fearful.

As to your larger point it was my experience too that my first half dozen or so dives after certification were trust me dives. After the typical 6 weeks of pool and 4 checkout dives that's what I was competent to do. It was the CF of my first no-DM dive with another noob, and the idea that my daughter was getting certified that convinced me I needed better skills.

 

[Cosmographer]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, Katepnatl, but allow me to disagree with the basic premise of your disagreement . Any DM will be vastly more experienced than most OW students or those recently certified. Even if the DM has only 50-100 dives rather than a thousand, it still seems like a lot to a noobie. I know this because during my OW cert, another customer joined us for a few dives and actually completed dive #50 while with us. We were in awe at how many dives he'd done and how experienced he was! lol. Only now that I'm beginning to approach that number do I realize how few dives that actually is. So even if the DM doesn't have 1000 dives under his belt, whatever experience he does have is enough to impress and perhaps intimidate most new divers.

Edit: Katepnatl, I just reread your post and wanted to correct an incorrect impression that you may have of my post. I never stated that newbies should put their trust in their DM. I said you can't really expect them not to. Big difference. I agree that "trust me" dives are not good, but imo, you can't fault a noobie who doesn't know any better. Now if they warned students against "trust me" dives in the OW course, it would be a totally different story.

 

[Insta-Gator]

Excellent observation and should be a "sticky" on this forum.

The same vets that want to flame newbs for going on "trust me" dives with a DM are usually the same ones who recommend newbs find a mentor to coach them along to gain experience. Does following a mentor somehow equate to less of a "trust me" dive than following a DM?

Every DM should inquire and understand the experience level of the dive group members. If the DM doesn't ask, you should tell the DM you are a newb and ask that the dive plan be appropriate for your level. Once that is done and you understand/agree with the dive plan, there is nothing wrong with following the DM on a "trust me" dive so long as you are situationally aware, monitor your status in accordance with the dive plan and dive within your comfort zone. Beyond that, communicate with your buddy and DM if your status changes.

Good post, Cosmographer.

 

[Rich Keller]

I would approach a dive op or DM like it was a job they were interviewing for. You are hiring them for 4-5 hours, you should know something about who you are paying to do the job. As far as new OW divers are concerned I would agree that some of the so called experienced divers do not treat them very well. I rarely use dive charters but when I do I always opt for the shallow dives that pair me up with OW divers. If I am going to dive with an insta-buddy I want it to be in shallow water and I do not want to dive with someone who thinks they know it all, those people scare me to death.

 

[Ozwald]

Boy this is a tough one simply due to the vast number of variables. There are DM's and then there are DM's. Up here one can achieve DM status diving the same dive each and every time. Perhaps this also applies to others as well but it's that much more prevalent here simply because of geographical restrictions.

In my 180 or so dives, which isn't a lot by any stretch, 150 of them are "different" from each other whether it's in a cavern/cave environment, wreck, reef, deep etc...etc. Then there are the DM's up here who have done the same dive, the same site 300 times.

I guess basically what i am trying to say is the DM designation doesn't really mean anything as opposed to the experience of the DM and how/where they rec'd their designation.