LDS Bashers

[waynne fowler]

Not leisurepro...diveriteexpress

http://www.diveriteexpress.com/gas/etherfill.shtml

I fell off my chair and pee'd myself... Laughing so hard I almost can't type!...

 

[waynne fowler]

I will give PADI the benefit of doubt and assume that they had explored the legal implications of online training before they launched their program. Besides, only the book portion of the training was done online, with final certification being issued by the dive shop. For example, you took the Nitrox course online, took an online comprehension test, and then went to your local LDS for instruction on using an oxygen analyzer to check the mix. Once that was completed, you got a c-card for 32% Nitrox. If you wanted a 36% card, you needed to do the two check-out dives.

My guess is that it was not as well received as they thought, and that is why they decided to drop it. I would also guess that the LDS's were not very keen on the idea and hassled a lot of students who chose this route. I guess I will find out, as I have finished the book portion of the Nitrox class, but still need to schedule time at my LDS for the hands-on portion.

For me the problem I had with the program is that the book's, both open water and EANx, cover minimal information. I'm not comfortable leaving student with 'minimum' information. People do the bookwork at home so that when they come to the classroom we have a foundation of knowledge to start from and can go into the real deal of diving that the book doesn't cover. I'm glad they dropped it. JMO


Waynne Fowler

 

[waynne fowler]

wow... can't believe I made it through all that.... only took 3 day's... wheeewww... My brain hurts

 

[ramblinpaul]

I think this post is really about respecting the LDS. My response to that concept is: OK I'll show them as much respect as they've shown me in my first year of diving.

I have the luxury of easily being able to visit 3 or 4 different ones in Toronto, yet I've had problems all of them.

Here are my beefs:

LDS # 1
1. When starting out with diving my wife was sold snorkle fins positioned as scuba fins.
2. The LDS where we did our O/W Cert. announced in our first class that any purchases made during the course would receive a 15% discount. "Hey, what about the few hundred $$ spent in masks, snorkels, fins (one scuba and one snorkel set), etc. since I enrolled in the course? I just paid full price for to get my wife and I started why no discount??"
3. When I went to purchase my BC, I was told this is a "good entry one", but it didn't really fit my needs. The salesperson knew that and I was told that's what's in stock. That's when I figured out the reason my wife was sold snorkel fins, because that's what was in stock (same salesperson).
4. When I purchased my Ikelite housing I requested that some additional silicone tubes be ordered. When the housing arrived, I asked about the silicone, and was told I could purchase some non-Ike silicone. Well I don't want non-Ike silicone, that's why I requested some additional tubes be ordered with the housing. I guess now I have to order them directly from Ike, and pay more for shipping then the tubes are worth.

LDS # 2
1. Purchased 2 aluminum tanks by the owner. Told they were a great price, and I shouldn't hesitate. Purchased the tanks, and 2 weeks later they were $10 less. I guess my great price wasn't the best price. I really don't like being lied to.....

LDS # 3
1. Purchased a C4 for $99. A dive buddy purchased the same torch elsewhere for $69. They also had a UK Light Cannon at $329 CDN, which I didn't purchase and later found it at another LDS for $199. I don't really have any problem with that store except their prices are so out of line. I only use that LDS for things I know I can't get elsewhere.

LDS # 4
1. I had a Gift Certificate which was won in my dive clubs 50-50 draw for an Equipment Course. The LDS didn't offer the course before the expiration date on the GC had passed, and the course increased $25 in cost. When they finally offered the course, I tried to use the GC they would only honour it at 50 cents on the dollar, plus another $25 to cover the price increase. I pointed out they issued a GC with an expiration date prior to actually offering the course. Their response was they were doing me a favour extending 50 cents on the dollar. I've never spent a dollar at that store, nor will I ever.

But, I've had issues with purchasing online as well.

Online Store #1
1. On a trip to the US, I purchased $1,000 US online, and had it delivered to my hotel. I split the order into 2 separate orders for Canadian customs purposes (a friend was declaring 1/2 purchase to avoid duties). The online retailer took it upon themselves to simply combine my 2 orders into one (there was a reason I structured my order the way I did), which caused me additional work and hassle to have corrected.
2. One of my purchases was defective, but my emails requesting resolution went unanswered and I had to return to Canada with a defective piece of equipment. Thankfully, it's not really a safety issue and I've rigged it so it works OK, but I would have preferred purchasing a product that was 100%.

It's not that I don't have loyalty to business, it's just that all the LDS I've worked with have let me down in one way, or another. I've used the same auto mechanic since I moved back to Toronto 10 years ago, so I can be loyal, but only if it's warranted.

My mechanic Mike has always treated me well and I've never felt taken advantage of on any purchase or repair. Now if only he'd open a dive shop in the last service bay.........

Thanks for the opportunity to rant, but on Page 32, Post 313, I doubt anyone will read my post :huh:

 

[Puffer Fish]

I think this post is really about respecting the LDS. My response to that concept is: OK I'll show them as much respect as they've shown me in my first year of diving.

I have the luxury of easily being able to visit 3 or 4 different ones in Toronto, yet I've had problems all of them.

Here are my beefs:

LDS # 1
1. When starting out with diving my wife was sold snorkle fins positioned as scuba fins.
2. The LDS where we did our O/W Cert. announced in our first class that any purchases made during the course would receive a 15% discount. "Hey, what about the few hundred $$ spent in masks, snorkels, fins (one scuba and one snorkel set), etc. since I enrolled in the course? I just paid full price for to get my wife and I started why no discount??"
3. When I went to purchase my BC, I was told this is a "good entry one", but it didn't really fit my needs. The salesperson knew that and I was told that's what's in stock. That's when I figured out the reason my wife was sold snorkel fins, because that's what was in stock (same salesperson).
4. When I purchased my Ikelite housing I requested that some additional silicone tubes be ordered. When the housing arrived, I asked about the silicone, and was told I could purchase some non-Ike silicone. Well I don't want non-Ike silicone, that's why I requested some additional tubes be ordered with the housing. I guess now I have to order them directly from Ike, and pay more for shipping then the tubes are worth.

LDS # 2
1. Purchased 2 aluminum tanks by the owner. Told they were a great price, and I shouldn't hesitate. Purchased the tanks, and 2 weeks later they were $10 less. I guess my great price wasn't the best price. I really don't like being lied to.....

LDS # 3
1. Purchased a C4 for $99. A dive buddy purchased the same torch elsewhere for $69. They also had a UK Light Cannon at $329 CDN, which I didn't purchase and later found it at another LDS for $199. I don't really have any problem with that store except their prices are so out of line. I only use that LDS for things I know I can't get elsewhere.

LDS # 4
1. I had a Gift Certificate which was won in my dive clubs 50-50 draw for an Equipment Course. The LDS didn't offer the course before the expiration date on the GC had passed, and the course increased $25 in cost. When they finally offered the course, I tried to use the GC they would only honour it at 50 cents on the dollar, plus another $25 to cover the price increase. I pointed out they issued a GC with an expiration date prior to actually offering the course. Their response was they were doing me a favour extending 50 cents on the dollar. I've never spent a dollar at that store, nor will I ever.

But, I've had issues with purchasing online as well.

Online Store #1
1. On a trip to the US, I purchased $1,000 US online, and had it delivered to my hotel. I split the order into 2 separate orders for Canadian customs purposes (a friend was declaring 1/2 purchase to avoid duties). The online retailer took it upon themselves to simply combine my 2 orders into one (there was a reason I structured my order the way I did), which caused me additional work and hassle to have corrected.
2. One of my purchases was defective, but my emails requesting resolution went unanswered and I had to return to Canada with a defective piece of equipment. Thankfully, it's not really a safety issue and I've rigged it so it works OK, but I would have preferred purchasing a product that was 100%.

It's not that I don't have loyalty to business, it's just that all the LDS I've worked with have let me down in one way, or another. I've used the same auto mechanic since I moved back to Toronto 10 years ago, so I can be loyal, but only if it's warranted.

My mechanic Mike has always treated me well and I've never felt taken advantage of on any purchase or repair. Now if only he'd open a dive shop in the last service bay.........

Thanks for the opportunity to rant, but on Page 32, Post 313, I doubt anyone will read my post :huh:

I read your post and you point out several real, valid points.

I don't buy from my local LDS, because the place does not deserve the business. I do buy from Larry at SCUBATOYS, because he he does deserve it.

A couple of the issues you got upset about could have been honest mistakes (the combined order, for example), but the unresolved defect is real, and should not have happened.

I will not buy from any company that I cannot call up and talk to someone that can resolve any issue I have. Not every SCUBATOYS order I have placed has been perfect, but being able to directly and quickly resolve any issue is also part of business.

Like your Mike, the trick is to find a good company and support them (if you want them to stay around). I buy from three places, each can be trusted, each stands by what they sell and each I will do business with again.

Wish you could have the same experience.

 

[joe rock]

...Thanks for the opportunity to rant, but on Page 32, Post 313, I doubt anyone will read my post :huh:

I read your post, sorry you had so much trouble. The only thing I can say reading this thread is I'm very lucky! As I've said in several other threads I've got an LDS I like very much. Do I pay more - you bet, but for me the value makes it worthwhile.

 

[jpsexton]

I find it interesting that so many people in the SCUBA industry feel that businesses don't have to be competative with each other. I've read all about the mfg. price fixing ect.. but it still is amazing to me that so many people feel that running a competative business is somehow wrong. When I bought gear for me and my son (both at the same time!) I allmost felt guilty that my LDS could not be competative. But when It really came down to it I had to spend my hard earned money wisely and ScubaToys got the sale. No other purchase I have ever made was this way. (cars, motorcycles, music equipment, or any other hobby item purchase) This is the only negative thing I can think of about the Scuba hobby. Thats why everyone is so emotional about the subject and this thread is 300+ posts long and counting. I guess it will eventually change but what a trainwreck in the process!

John

 

[DPJ]

"Snip"

I guess it will eventually change but what a trainwreck in the process!

John

Not soon enough. This train will continue to wreck for many years. The business model has to change, but there are too many die hards out there that are going to go out kicking and screaming and trying to shame you into spending more than you must.:1poke:

 

[waynne fowler]

I think this post is really about respecting the LDS. My response to that concept is: OK I'll show them as much respect as they've shown me in my first year of diving.

I have the luxury of easily being able to visit 3 or 4 different ones in Toronto, yet I've had problems all of them.

Here are my beefs:

LDS # 1
1. When starting out with diving my wife was sold snorkle fins positioned as scuba fins.
2. The LDS where we did our O/W Cert. announced in our first class that any purchases made during the course would receive a 15% discount. "Hey, what about the few hundred $$ spent in masks, snorkels, fins (one scuba and one snorkel set), etc. since I enrolled in the course? I just paid full price for to get my wife and I started why no discount??"
3. When I went to purchase my BC, I was told this is a "good entry one", but it didn't really fit my needs. The salesperson knew that and I was told that's what's in stock. That's when I figured out the reason my wife was sold snorkel fins, because that's what was in stock (same salesperson).
4. When I purchased my Ikelite housing I requested that some additional silicone tubes be ordered. When the housing arrived, I asked about the silicone, and was told I could purchase some non-Ike silicone. Well I don't want non-Ike silicone, that's why I requested some additional tubes be ordered with the housing. I guess now I have to order them directly from Ike, and pay more for shipping then the tubes are worth.

LDS # 2
1. Purchased 2 aluminum tanks by the owner. Told they were a great price, and I shouldn't hesitate. Purchased the tanks, and 2 weeks later they were $10 less. I guess my great price wasn't the best price. I really don't like being lied to.....

LDS # 3
1. Purchased a C4 for $99. A dive buddy purchased the same torch elsewhere for $69. They also had a UK Light Cannon at $329 CDN, which I didn't purchase and later found it at another LDS for $199. I don't really have any problem with that store except their prices are so out of line. I only use that LDS for things I know I can't get elsewhere.

LDS # 4
1. I had a Gift Certificate which was won in my dive clubs 50-50 draw for an Equipment Course. The LDS didn't offer the course before the expiration date on the GC had passed, and the course increased $25 in cost. When they finally offered the course, I tried to use the GC they would only honour it at 50 cents on the dollar, plus another $25 to cover the price increase. I pointed out they issued a GC with an expiration date prior to actually offering the course. Their response was they were doing me a favour extending 50 cents on the dollar. I've never spent a dollar at that store, nor will I ever.

But, I've had issues with purchasing online as well.

Online Store #1
1. On a trip to the US, I purchased $1,000 US online, and had it delivered to my hotel. I split the order into 2 separate orders for Canadian customs purposes (a friend was declaring 1/2 purchase to avoid duties). The online retailer took it upon themselves to simply combine my 2 orders into one (there was a reason I structured my order the way I did), which caused me additional work and hassle to have corrected.
2. One of my purchases was defective, but my emails requesting resolution went unanswered and I had to return to Canada with a defective piece of equipment. Thankfully, it's not really a safety issue and I've rigged it so it works OK, but I would have preferred purchasing a product that was 100%.

It's not that I don't have loyalty to business, it's just that all the LDS I've worked with have let me down in one way, or another. I've used the same auto mechanic since I moved back to Toronto 10 years ago, so I can be loyal, but only if it's warranted.

My mechanic Mike has always treated me well and I've never felt taken advantage of on any purchase or repair. Now if only he'd open a dive shop in the last service bay.........

Thanks for the opportunity to rant, but on Page 32, Post 313, I doubt anyone will read my post :huh:

LDS#1...
1- Did you return the snorkeling fins? They should have taken the fin's back if they knew when they sold them to you that you'd be diving and sold you the wrong fins. If they would not then I would have asked for an exchange right in the middle of my class, kinda puts them on the spot. Embarrassement is a huge motivator for a retail oriented business.

2-Perhaps the discounts were only being givin on non-snorkeling equipment. At our shop when you buy a complete snorkeling system from us.. mask, fins, snorkel, boots, gloves we give the students a discount on the class. It encourages them to let us fit them and we don't change the packages to what we get the best margins on.. we sell what we know works best.. It's the same stuff I'd put my best friends and my grandkids in.
Then if you buy any 'other' equipment during the course you will get a discount on that equipment.. Were they offering the discount on the same catagory of equipment you purchased?

3- That is one of the single biggest areas where shops fail thier customer base. Entry level stuff... Entry level implys that you will most likely some day (probably sooner than later) grow out of the equipment before you ware it out. We don't carry entry level stuff.. what is that anyway.. why buy a BC for $300 and buy another later for $400 - $500. Why not sell your customer something that can adapt as there needs change?. Plus it allows a shop to not have to carry 10 different BC's.. you can carry 5. This means that you get to carry products (as a shop) in a narrow and deep fashion which translates to savings for the dive shop in terms of purchase and in turn can be passed on to the customer and you can still make a decent margin. Be leary of people that want to sell you "entry level" stuff. As a shop when people come in and ask for entry level equipment I price everything out for them, then I also price out long term equipment for them.. usually there is only about a 25% increase in the inital cost but at least a 75% savings over the lifespan of the equipment as they won't need to replace it for many years.

LDS #2
1- We all know that sales happen. When they do, it's almost certian that someone will have bought that product recently.. A sale has a start date and and end date thats true on the web or at B&M stores.. You should have asked if they would give you a couple of airfills or something. I don't see in this instance that the store did anything wrong, nor in my opinion were you lied to unless they told you something that implied they could never sell the tanks for less.

2- Ok... that's crappy business.. there may be extenuating circumstances you or I don't know about but on the surface that looks bad.

3- I don't know how it is where you live but here in Washington state. Gift Certificates cannot expire and in fact can be redeemed for cash. The law is new last year and goes retroactive to like July of 2002 or something like that. There are exceptions but they are limited in scope. Again on the surface this looks bad.

I think all in all you've hit on some of the things that can sour people on a dive shop/web site. No place is perfect but it's about how they attempt to be so. I work at a shop and in the future wish to open a store, and so this thread holds special interest for me. I've owned other service oriented business's You will always run into businesses who feel the customers pockets are there to be picked and there are also those customers who feel that the business needs to sell everything at the price they (the customer) feel is appropriate. Both of these ways of thinking IMHO are wrong. Sure you can pick that newbies pockets, but eventually they will not be a newbie and will figure out what you did, now they not only arn't a customer anymore but they are out there telling everyone your a thief and a cheat. OTOH a customer cannot always expect EVERYTHING for the cheapest price. Sometimes the shops don't get the product at that sweet deal pricing and so cannot pass that on unless a MFG is willing to fix it for them. However the little guys out here don't have the same bargaining power as companies that can order $250.000 dollers of merchandise at a time, the little guy may find it hard to pick up $25.000 a couple of times a year.

Loyalty is a good thing but many people don't realize it's a two way street. We get people coming in sometimes that I see once or twice a year and have spent a few hundred bucks with us over 8 - 10 years. They look at a BC and ask if I can sell that $500 BC for $250 - $300 bucks... Well I can do 10% off for you... they walk out with the airfill they came in for initally. Then they go somewhere else and someone sells them the entry level BC for that $250 -$300 bucks :06: and the guy doesn't realize that he's going to spend that money again. But then one of our customers who's spent 1000's or 10's of 1000's and ask's how much that BC is.. well thats normally $500 but for you $300 - $400 bucks. IMHO in the real world loyalty is not just givin away, if it is then it has no value. Respect is givin upfront but loyalty is earned both by the shop and the customer. Shops offer respect to the customers by providing great service, superior training, outstanding products at a competative price or a good price when the product has value added items. (i.e. buy your BC, Regs, Computer, Compass for price X and get 4 free class's, airfills for a year - or whatever) and so should be IMO worthy of loyalty. By the same token a customer that has been faithful to you deserves to enjoy some greater benifit then the Joe who come's in only to see what you have in the used bin's or discount shelves.


JM2C... but hey... I could be jacked up!


Edited for spelling & grammer

 

[tedtim]

Not leisurepro...diveriteexpress

http://www.diveriteexpress.com/gas/etherfill.shtml

I heard that this was so good that you could put two different mixes into the same tank.