LDS loyalty?

[sharpenu]

I don't see why I have to shop at a certain store in order to support their outdated business model. You keep up or get left behind. The reasons for supporting the LDS are bogus.

Claim #1 "You lose the training center"- most of the classes given by the agencies are intended more to sell cards and make money than to teach. For example, why is advanced a seperate class for $100 or more? For that matter, why is Nitrox seperate for another $150 or more? As long as you learn one table, you can learn another.

Claim #2- "Where are you gonna get fills?" I can say this about that- A Black Diamond BCD costs nearly $700 at my LDS. At LP, it is only $550. Shipping is about the same as sales tax, so that is not an issue. By the time you add up the extra costs of buying your gear at those prices and fills at the $5 to $10 most shops charge, it makes buying your own compressor look alot cheaper. Especially if you go in with a few buddies.

Claim 3- (Corollary to Claim #1) "If we don't police ourselves, the government will." BS- does the government police hangliding? Swimming? Many more people die doing that than die diving.

 

[redacted]

While I agree to a point, I also disagree. Most major manufacturers have these type of agreements, and if they choose not to abide by them, their options aren't all that rosy.
If you were in the market for a reg and went into your local LDS and they told you " we got rid of our Scubapro and Aqualung lines because we want to sell online. But, we do have this new "John Doe" regulator. It's $160 cheaper than those we used to carry and I personally guarantee it'll work" what would you do? Personally, I'd look elsewhere. I want to buy from a recognized and reputable company, not some upstart that I've never heard of that will sell me a reg a little cheaper.
It's no different buying a car, you buy based on it's reputation. I would have loved to buy a Dodge Dakota as I love the look of it, but based on it's reputation for costly repairs, I bought a Jeep recently. I've always had good luck with Jeeps.
I'm not absolving LDSs of blame, but once they have spent $10,000 plus to get a line in the store and be it's local rep, it's hard to "give the line away", possibly to their competition in order to bring in a relatively unknown that will allow internet sales. Also, once one LDS has the "area" for a line, often that prohibits another shop from carrying it, limiting the other shops available options.
Bottomline is the manufacturers have had it good for a long time, and have learned how to make the system work for them. Times are changing, albeit slowly, and a lot of LDSs are going to fail or at least get hurt. I feel bad for them. Most are good people who got into the industry because they love it, just like you and I, and are trying to make a living doing something they love. They have a limited clientele, as not everyone is a diver, have to buy and pay for their next seasons product line 6 months before the season really starts, and abide by the policies and restrictions put forth by those manufacturers. It isn't easy. Some of them take the easy way out and try to overcharge, trying to make up for the money they've already spent by making a few sales. THATS WRONG. But I can see why they do it.
If the manufacturers really cared about the industry, and their area reps, they would level the playing field and accept that like every other industry, the internet is the future and all their reps can sell on the internet. They can still have some degree of controls, by setting up areas, and only allowing one shop to cover that area as far as foot traffic. For example. In the Florida Keys, you could have shops 20 miles apart selling the same brands and both would thrive, based on the number of divers. So in that state, the areas would be smaller than say my state, Vermont, where one shop could cover the whole state. In the end, the manufacturuer still has a few hundred reps covering the foot traffic, but all of them are free to sell world wide on the internet. If shop ABC in Key Largo is making enough on his charters and foot traffic that he can afford to drop his price a bit on equipment and sell less than Shop 123 in North Dakota, so be it, and they can fight for the same internet sales. What will allow each shop to survive is marketing and service, just as it should be. The system is flawed, I think we all agree with that, but it's the manufacturuers in my opinion that are holding the cards. Until they allow change, it won't happen.
Just my 2psi,
C-Dawg

Sometimes I wish I didn't have a box full of Scubapro regs as I am fairly invested. Thankfully, most of the $$ that SP is going to make on them was made 20 years ago. I do really appreciate their continued support of older models as well as their HUGE distribution system, fraught with all those cracks that leak grey market gear at competative prices, as well as service parts and literature. But if I were starting today, regs like Diverite & Zeagle seem to offer quality and the availability of services I want. And I'd keep my eye on those Salvo regs. I suspect that Abyss may have broken down the barrier, killing itself in the process, but opening up a new wave of serious competitors offering quality goods without the offensive market restrictions.

 

[Vtdiver2]

Sometimes I wish I didn't have a box full of Scubapro regs as I am fairly invested. Thankfully, most of the $$ that SP is going to make on them was made 20 years ago. I do really appreciate their continued support of older models as well as their HUGE distribution system, fraught with all those cracks that leak grey market gear at competative prices, as well as service parts and literature. But if I were starting today, regs like Diverite & Zeagle seem to offer quality and the availability of services I want. And I'd keep my eye on those Salvo regs. I suspect that Abyss may have broken down the barrier, killing itself in the process, but opening up a new wave of serious competitors offering quality goods without the offensive market restrictions.

I agree, so why doesn't SP just "lead the way" and get rid of grey market stuff and let their reps sell online? If they did, I think you'd see other manufacturers follow suit. It would be no different than when GM started their "employee pricing" this past summer....many other manufacturuers realized they were going to lose sales unless they did the same. Once one MAJOR scuba manufacturer bites the bullet, change will come. It's in their hands.
C-Dawg

 

[redacted]

I agree, so why doesn't SP just "lead the way" and get rid of grey market stuff and let their reps sell online? If they did, I think you'd see other manufacturers follow suit. It would be no different than when GM started their "employee pricing" this past summer....many other manufacturuers realized they were going to lose sales unless they did the same. Once one MAJOR scuba manufacturer bites the bullet, change will come. It's in their hands.
C-Dawg

Momentum. I think they are too big and too worldwide to stop the grey market by interupting the supply. And it's really only a problem with Scubapro USA. I think there are already major mfgrs that have come around or at least taken serious steps in that direction. I think the worst thing that could happen is if we all woke up tomorrow to a scuba industry with all the restrictions removed. The dinosaures would have no chance to adapt. I actually think we are headed in the right direction and at about the right pace. There are a lot of shops using the internet - many just on ebay with mostly used gear right now. And they are realizing that they can't be both badmouthing the internet and selling the Scubapro regs and BCDs that they used in training last year on ebay.

I don't think Scubapro USA has realized they are no longer top dog. It's not 1980 any more and we are not going back there.

 

[ghostdiver1957]

There was an interesting article in the Baltimore Sun newspaper this week about how retail sales (across the board) were down this year... and how retailers were relying on their internet sales to save them. You see, internet sales accounted for as much as 20% of all retail sales this holiday season. That means $1 in $5 was earned through net sales and on average 1 out of 5 customers shopped on the net. These numbers continue to increase each year.

14% of all holiday business was expected to be done via the internet after Christmas.

If you're not selling on the internet, you're simply not going to make it in the new world. Dive shops are no different. They either get with the program or close their doors.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

If you're not selling on the internet, you're simply not going to make it in the new world. Dive shops are no different. They either get with the program or close their doors.

The shop I instruct for sold on the internet at one time. We've since shut that down and gone strictly brick and mortar. According to you we are doomed but our retail sales doubled in the past year.

imagine that.

 

[H20Bubbles]

The shop I instruct for sold on the internet at one time. We've since shut that down and gone strictly brick and mortar. According to you we are doomed but our retail sales doubled in the past year.

imagine that.

I don't believe the doomed to fail statement, and it is good that your sales are up. But really, what was the reason for stopping internet sales? How is that tied to the increase in retail sales?

Like it or not, the internet is grown sales channel. If you choose not to use it that is fine. Perhaps your shop is doing something that makes the customer actually feel valued. Customer value is not always about the price, but in today's still tight economy price is a driving factor.

 

[tjmills]

No question. The LDS's have to keep up with the times and the internet is here to stay. Period. It will only get bigger, but until Manufacturers like ScubaPro and others wake up, its going to be a blood bath.

All I am saying is give you LDS a chance to meet the prices but including shipping in your figures. If they won't, buy from the internet. Internet prices are already on the increase so most of the time you will win/win and many times go home with the product rather than waiting 5-7 days for delivery.

The other thing is that when we start buying from the LDS's again, it will force manufacturers to do the right thing. LDS's will start carrying inventory again (which pisses me off too) and people will continue to get certified which is good for all of us. Stop the certifications and the wheels fall off for everyone.

BTW: I hated paying the cost for the Nitrox certification and really think the specialties are out of control with both cost and material. We can all thank PADI for that one. Don't blame the LDS for that, you need to look elsewhere if this really irritates you. I know it does me. Love em or hate em PADI is on top of the world and they want your $$.

 

[ghostdiver1957]

The shop I instruct for sold on the internet at one time. We've since shut that down and gone strictly brick and mortar. According to you we are doomed but our retail sales doubled in the past year.

imagine that.

Hey Al...

CONGRATULATIONS!

... now it's time to wake up...

While what you say is certainly possible... and I truly congradulate you if it is... the reality is that you are 1 in every 100 shops.... maybe more like 1 in 500 to be able to do so... so Good Luck... and keep up the good work

 

[mdb]

Love em or hate em PADI is on top of the world and they want your $$.

They are getting your $$. PADI is the single largest company in diving by a very big margin. When you print/produce your own materials and sell at a very large multiple over your cost you can make a lot of money.