Lift bag technique.

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ClayJar

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Divemaster
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Location
Baton Rouge, LA
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Last night, we had the pool session for our NAUI Master Scuba Diver class, and one of the fun diversions was lift bag use. I'm no stranger to lift bags, as we covered them in the Advanced class, and I've been using one quite a bit since then. (Hey, what can I say? It's fun to play with toys.)

Anyway, I didn't think I was having a problem with the skill, but the divemaster assisting our instructor apparently disagreed. He signaled me to dump air and get on the bottom of the pool, and then when my buddy and I surfaced, he chided me for floating and told me that I should *always* be heavy and kneeling on the bottom when using a lift bag. I mentioned that most of my experience using lift bags had been on very silty bottoms, and if I knelt on the bottom, wouldn't that be a bad idea? He said it doesn't matter what the bottom is; you should always be negative and on the bottom when using a lift bag.

Okay, then. I know that the Internet has not been certified as an active NAUI, PADI, or other instructor (I think it just can't handle the swimming trials), but I would like to hear comments on proper lift bag technique. Was the DM correct, or is it perfectly reasonable (or even recommended) to maintain neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim while working with a lift bag? If you *must* be negative and kneeling on the bottom, what in tarnation are you supposed to do when you want to lift a lost anchor from a poor (but not defenseless) coral reef? If you kneel in silt and completely destroy the visibility, won't that make the lift much less safe?

Obviously, if you need to dig a bit to free the thing or get rope around it, you've got no choice but to go with it, but if you're lifting an outboard off a silt bottom, wouldn't it be better *not* to silt everything to mud? Also, wouldn't it be more productive to be able to give a quick fin kick to maintain vertical control at the beginning of the lift, just in case you slightly over-lift and need a moment to dump a bit of air to prevent a runaway? I know I can produce a nice chunk of thrust from a kick, but not if I'm kneeling on the bottom. I'm weighted to be neutral with an empty BC and tank at 15', so it's not like I could be as negatively buoyant as the downward thrust from a fin kick.

If you're that negative when you get the lift+bag to neutral, won't that make it more complicated, since you'll have to get yourself back to neutral to fin away with the lift, too? And how about the technique of using a rope with loops every 10 feet or so and using two lift bags in sequence to walk the lift up the water column? You obviously can't do mid-water lifts while kneeling on the bottom, right?

Well, there you have it. Is my lift bag technique completely wrongheaded and dangerous? Should I heed or ignore the DM's advice, or is there some truth to both sides, perhaps? Is it better to get negative and kneel when possible, but to know how to do lifting skills while neutrally buoyant for those times when you ought not be on the bottom, and if so, how do you decide which technique is appropriate?

I'm skeptical of the DM's advice, but I'm openminded enough to consider that either of us may be right or wrong, and in varying degrees. I figured this ought to be a good place to ask about it diplomatically. (I wasn't about to go up to the instructor in front of the DM and ask. Would've been rude. Still, I want to know more so I can discuss it with the instructor next class.)
 
Your DM is wrong.
What if you have to shoot a surface marker from midwater? Can't very well kneel on the bottom when you're 100 ft above it.

Anyhow, get nearly neutral, maybe a tiny bit negative, and shoot the bag from a slightly heads down, but mostly horizontal position. This will allow you to kick down against a little bit of positive buoyancy provided by the bag. Remember that due to Boyle's Law, you don't have to fill the thing. This is obviously more difficult in a swimming pool, but from any reasonable depth, you just don't need to put much gas in the bag.

If you are actually lifting something, you *definitely* want to be neutral, otherwise how the heck are you going to control the bag as it goes up?
 
Well, you got me rolling on the floor laughing at the DM with this one.

Next time you talk to him, ask him when the last time he shot a bag for an upline when the depth was 300ft to the bottom?

Anyway, liftbags are used for many things and no sitting on the bottom is not a requirement.

You had it right. Be neutral, connect your line to the bag, loosen the locking bolt on your real if you are using a real, or just have the spool in your hand for free release of line, inflate the bag from your exhaust port on your second stage and let'r rip but controled.

Do not over inflate the bag and it is not necessary to use your octo or primary and press the purge button. In fact this is not recommended because it can create a free flow. Exhausted gas from your exhaust port is plenty. I usually use two breaths from about 60 - 80 ft.
 
When launching a bag in mid water, I will partially fill it with air by dumping from the wing inflator into the bag as you then remain neutral until you release the bag. And since your hand is already on the inflator, it's simple and quick to add enough air back into the wing to get neutral again once the bag is released.

The key is to hold the lower edge of the bag pinched between the knuckles of your first two fingers while holding the inflator between the other two fingers and your thumb (which is also on the dump button). Your right hand then holds the reel or spool and keeps the line clear to prevent you from going up with the bag.

Done properly with a just a couple fin kicks while you re-add the air to the wing after releasing, you can do the whole evolution with no change in depth.
 
Quarrior:
You had it right. Be neutral, connect your line to the bag, loosen the locking bolt on your real if you are using a real, or just have the spool in your hand for free release of line, inflate the bag from your exhaust port on your second stage and let'r rip but controled.


Putting positive boyance into a lift bag being used to lift something is dangerous. What if what you lifting comes loose? If so it will be falling toward you. You should only put enough air into it to make it neutrally boyant, then you should bring it to the surface swimming next to it. if it starts becomming positively boyant, use the dump valve to release some air from it.
 
mfalco:
Putting positive boyance into a lift bag being used to lift something is dangerous. What if what you lifting comes loose? If so it will be falling toward you. You should only put enough air into it to make it neutrally boyant, then you should bring it to the surface swimming next to it. if it starts becomming positively boyant, use the dump valve to release some air from it.

I think Quarrior was referring to the usage of a lift bag as a surface marker, in which case it should be released to fly. When actually lifting something, one should stay with the bag.
 
Soggy:
I think Quarrior was referring to the usage of a lift bag as a surface marker, in which case it should be released to fly. When actually lifting something, one should stay with the bag.
You are very correct.

I use mine for all kinds of things. I use them as ascent lines, lifting, marker bouy and who knows what else. I've also been known to use it during project aware to mark something I didn't want to drag around with me, like a full bag of trash or even something to combersome to drag around like a tire. Instead of surfacing, I'll just mark it and come back for it later.

How the bag is deployed depends on what it is being used for.
 
Your DM is a moron.
 
ClayJar,

I just have to ask. How many dives does this rocket scientist of a DM have? Second question is, how many of them are actual non-class related dives?
 
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