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Making the leap: help choosing first rb

Discussion in 'Rebreather Diving' started by Zebra 1, Aug 17, 2020.

  1. RainPilot

    RainPilot OC/CCR Instructor Trainer Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: UAE
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    I don’t know. It’s not for caves it seems but there’s some pretty huge dives being done regularly on them. I have never had anything but joy from mine but I am only doing 200’. The solid state sensors do give me a lot of peace of mind as well.
     
    ND5342 likes this.
  2. tbone1004

    tbone1004 Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Greenville, South Carolina, United States
    17,549
    9,649
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    @Superlyte27 sent you a message, don't want to out them if it's not something that is kosher with Dive Rite.

    @RainPilot the best thing about the Se7en is the BOV. It's amazing. SSS is obviously nice too. Rest of the unit I can do without, but those two things are quite good, and I own the BOV for use on other breathers
     
    ND5342 and RainPilot like this.
  3. wedivebc

    wedivebc CCR Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    SSS?
    I like the way the dil injects directly on the cells for fast cell validation. I understand Cis Lunar patented that process and Poseidon now owns it.
     
  4. tbone1004

    tbone1004 Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Greenville, South Carolina, United States
    17,549
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    113
    solid state sensors
     
    wedivebc likes this.
  5. Superlyte27

    Superlyte27 Cave Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Florida
    3,952
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    so what’s mentioned above and I’ll add...
    The business model doesn’t work for me. Buy this rebreather for a billion dollars, then pay another bazillion dollars to unlock it so you can do the types of diving you want to do.

    Every single rebreather I own (5 right now) is sold in its max configuration. I don’t have to spend tons of money to get to do deeper dives.

    I like the idea of SSS, but too early to decide if I trust my life to no voting logic.
     
  6. RainPilot

    RainPilot OC/CCR Instructor Trainer Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: UAE
    4,318
    4,224
    69
    There’s no upgrade costs. Haven’t been for years. You can buy any version you like. The rec vs tec version difference is MAV and cylinder inversion kit, just lets you save some money if you don’t need all the bells and whistles immediately.
    It is also under 10k for the full bells and whistles version including SSS so not really a bazillion.
    I get that the voting logic issue is a controversial one but most folks don’t really understand what the Poseidon is doing with the virtual 3rd cell and the constant validation system. Not aimed at you specifically Superlyte but my general experience.
    I believe in it but I was also there when fly by wire was criticised by the old guard pilots and now it’s the standard.
     
    ND5342 likes this.
  7. Superlyte27

    Superlyte27 Cave Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Florida
    3,952
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    not two different batteries anymore? One for shallow water one for deep water?

    also 10k is nearly double what a KISS costs and probably 40% more than a chOptima
     
  8. tbone1004

    tbone1004 Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Greenville, South Carolina, United States
    17,549
    9,649
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    It's $11k all in on DGX right now which is $1500 more than the comparable O2ptima. Not cheap, but has the solid state sensor which is the price jump.
    Double what the KISS cost is bullsh!t and you know it. Sure the rebreather is $4500, but then you need cells, a computer, bottles, backplate/wing, etc. and by the time you get all of that, they're all about the same. The KISS units are deceptively cheap because they're sold stripped down and really aren't a "bargain".
     
    ScubaWithTurk, grantctobin and ChuckP like this.
  9. Superlyte27

    Superlyte27 Cave Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Florida
    3,952
    3,033
    113
    lol, I sell Kiss, all in, they are THOUSANDS cheaper
     
  10. RainPilot

    RainPilot OC/CCR Instructor Trainer Staff Member ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: UAE
    4,318
    4,224
    69
    Not to hijack the thread, if the OP @Zebra 1 is unhappy hit report at the bottom of my post and I will remove it, but I feel like other folks looking for a first rebreather may find this thread so it could be helpful...

    Yeah the BOV is very good indeed. It's a remodelled XStream so it's a superlative regulator in and of itself, unlike many bolt-on BOV from many other manufacturers.

    Correct, the cell validation process is, for me, the biggest reason to own a Poseidon. Nobody has yet died on one due to any cell issues of any kind, the 3 fatalities I am aware of were a recent(ish) Norwegian diver who left off an o-ring on the scrubber canister and had a CO2 hit a few minutes into the dive, and 2 others of folks completely untrained on the unit diving them, where they completely ignored the unit failing the predive checks (low gas, low battery) and dived it anyway until they ran out of O2 in one case and completely killed the battery in the other (not great on an eCCR). In both cases the units were screaming alarms at them but they chose to ignore them and paid the Dunning-Kruger price.

    That is fair, personally when I started off I was only going to be diving recreationally on the unit, had no tech plans at all (sound familiar?) and so I could save a few grand. Later when I went to the dark side, I just added the bits I needed and off I went.

    Yes, there are still different batteries, but that is a slightly complex story. For the original certification as "Type-R" or recreational rebreather there needed to be a means for the unit to prevent divers from exceeding their cert limits. IIRC the older Megs had a PIN code you would enter to unlock deeper/mixed gas, or was that AP?

    That led to the green "Rec" battery, which acts like a rec dive computer ie will bitch if you go deeper than 40m and / or deco, but will give you guidance on a safe deco ascent. The certifying agencies requested the same functionality at the various levels, which led to the yellow battery (40m, air dil, deco), the blue battery (48m light trimix), the white battery (60m normoxic) and the black battery ( no depth, any gas).

    Users complained that when you upgraded you ended up with a bunch of "unusable" batteries, and after Poseidon got no support from the agencies who were the ones insisting on it, they removed the requirement for proving certifications when purchasing batteries. Thus, if you only ever want to dive recreationally, you can buy a (cheaper) green battery with your unit, if you think you might end up going all the way to Mod3, then buy the unit with a black battery. No harm no foul.

    Ok, the SSS make a big difference. A Seven in full tech mode with paddle and galvanic sensors is 7500 USD. That is pretty close to Optima spec. The SSS are around 700 USD each, however they add up once you look at the replacement costs of galvanic sensors. If you have a 3 cell CCR, then you are paying around 250$ a year to replace sensors, over 10 years that is 1000 more than buying 2 SSS now. Of course that is upfront cost, but I believe that will increase the relative resale value of the units.

    that 10 years is when the sensor factory says they will need recalibration. Right now there are no sensors that have reached that mark yet, however Poseidon are building a recalibration rig for service techs to be able to recalibrate cells at services, will be a year or two before that is out but we may see significantly longer cell lifetimes.

    As a side note, Poseidon are selling SSS machines to military buyers faster than they can keep up. These are (mostly) adapters that allow the clients to use their existing O2 rebreathers as eCCR with very few mods. They are selling hundreds of these units, its a main part of why the SSS aren't available for individual purchase yet.

    Peter, that's a little disingenuous. mCCR are always going to be cheaper than a full-tilt eCCR. Apples with apples, the Poseidon is not significantly more expensive than any comparable unit out there, especially once you start factoring in the sensor costs and other "extras" that need to be purchased with many other units.

    SE7EN+ TEC Package US is a good place to have a look. Bear in mind that prices include 20% VAT, which does not apply to US customers. The "Rec" vs "Tec" labels on the units are an indication of the target market, any of the units can be upgraded to full spec, it is just an indication of what comes in the box. the "Sport" units are also fully Tec-capable, they just don't come with the cover and they are in low-frills packaging.
     

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