NACD Instructor standards violation

[ucfdiver]

If this is what the investigation is regarding, it's not that he taught Trimix to a diver that simply lacked Full Cave training. Full Cave isn't a pre-req for ANY deco training. However, when certs specifically limit depth and explicitly state "No Decompression".....and someone takes you to them anyway, it's a violation of standards.

My understanding is that you're allowed to take a student one level beyond what they're certified to dive. An OW diver can be taken to a Cavern. A Cavern diver can do an Intro dive. An Intro diver can do an Apprentice dive. An Apprentice dive can do a Full Cave dive. OR, you take someone with no deco and do an AN/DP dive with them. However, taking an Intro diver well beyond those limits while exceeding other limits IS an issue. In the overhead, you must have Full Cave to be doing decompression dives.

It's more tricky than you describe. I took a Naui course where I went on a deco dive using trimix when I was not certified for either. Many combine Advanced Nitrox, Decompression Procedures, and Trimix into one course.

In this case they went up a cave level and up a mixed gas level. It is my understanding that when guiding up a level a waiver is needed and it's assumed that the same predive briefing and rules as the first class dives are followed.

 

[cerich]

It is my understanding that when guiding up a level a waiver is needed

from whom?

 

[TSandM]

I honestly cannot believe (although I should, because I've been here a long time) that we have spent PAGES arguing about something, when we aren't even sure it's the thing that's being investigated.

The last big ruckus with the NACD was that someone with a criminal record was being protected by the BOD because they were cronies. Now we're screaming against Rick for trying to do the opposite. I do find it sad that Rob's reputation is tarnished, when an investigation may not support the charges (WHATEVER those charges are), but we also publish the names of people who are arrested, even though they haven't been tried -- and that arrest record stays with them for life, even if the charges are dismissed.

I am a personal friend of Rob's, although we have not been close in the last few years at all. I hope the investigation clears him of whatever wrongdoing he is accused of, but if a proper investigation shows that he violated standards in an unsafe way, then Rick has done the right thing for sure.

The saddest part of all of this is that the largest part of the recreational diving world is composed of some of the nicest people I know, who share a passion for being underwater and seeing things that others don't. Somehow, the technical and cave diving niches (and I use the word carefully to indicate the space they occupy is VERY small) are as clique-ridden and divisive as a girl's school. It's a shame.

 

[ucfdiver]

from whom?

The student, or maybe that's just a common sense thing done by most instructors that's not required by the agency?
?

 

[nakatomi]

LOG is an issue because it isn't exactly the easiest place to get into or out of, this is very different than Eagles Nest.... LOG entrance is a restriction, no getting around that, without full cave it's an issue.

What's the issue with a minor restriction and being intro certified? There are agencies that even require their intro students to pass minor restrictions while doing air sharing drills.
Learning to handle single file minor restrictions is part of the cave curriculum, it's not something that is introduced at the full cave level.
And sure, I'm not talking about MAJOR restrictions where you have to remove your tanks and/or be a contortionist to handle it. There is no such restriction in LOG.

And I don't get how all of you post on the CDF how you had the best training in the world, yet a simple minor restriction is now an unsolvable problem for an intro diver?

And James, since you bring it up again and again. Please fill us in how taking intro certified divers into LOG for trimix classes breaks the standards.

I can tell you right now that both my IANTD intro cave and my IANTD technical cave card say:

Max Depth 130 FSW

Yes, the limit is the same for both certifications.

I'll be waiting for you to show me where IANTD standards were broken when I took my Trimix class in LOG.

 

[PfcAJ]

Do you legitimately think that an intro diver has any business being >100ft deep and on the other side of a restriction, incurring a somewhat significant decompression obligation? And Oliver, you had to flip over on your back (https://youtu.be/7YyV9CVLeHA?t=59) to get in. What exactly qualifies as a 'major restriction' if that doesn't? Let me guess: if your bro Rob is teaching there, its a-ok.

And if I recall correctly (it's been a few years), the deepest part of that dive is through that breakdown at the section leading to the circuit (~170 max through that bit) then it slopes back up a bit shallower at the circuit (120-130). FAR deeper than what's on an intro card, and certainly above an intro diver's pay grade. Poor judgement.

Its irresponsible, dangerous, and really highlights what's wrong with the cave training community. Anything to make a buck.

Bottom line is lower OG is an inappropriate place for an intro certified diver, and at least somewhat questionable as a place to even teach any class.

 

[ucfdiver]

What's the issue with a minor restriction and being intro certified? There are agencies that even require their intro students to pass minor restrictions while doing air sharing drills.
Learning to handle single file minor restrictions is part of the cave curriculum, it's not something that is introduced at the full cave level.
And sure, I'm not talking about MAJOR restrictions where you have to remove your tanks and/or be a contortionist to handle it. There is no such restriction in LOG.

And I don't get how all of you post on the CDF how you had the best training in the world, yet a simple minor restriction is now an unsolvable problem for an intro diver?

And James, since you bring it up again and again. Please fill us in how taking intro certified divers into LOG for trimix classes breaks the standards.

I can tell you right now that both my IANTD intro cave and my IANTD technical cave card say:

Max Depth 130 FSW

Yes, the limit is the same for both certifications.

I'll be waiting for you to show me where IANTD standards were broken when I took my Trimix class in LOG.

Looking at the standards here, a lost line drill, lost buddy drill, etc isn't even required by this agency.
IANTD Standards & Procedures

If they stayed above 130 in LOG, which I don't recall if that's possible (I don't believe it is) since I've been only once, then this could have been within IANTD's vague standards.
Program Limits

1. 1. There may be no more than 3 students per Instructor inside the cave with starting visibility of 30 feet (9 meters), or 2 students per Instructor with starting visibility of 20 feet (6 meters), or 1 student per Instructor with starting visibility of 12 feet (4 meters).
   2. No dives may be conducted to depths greater than 130 fsw (39 msw).
   3. Each diver must have at least 60 cubic feet (1700 free liters) of breathing gas.
   4. The Rule of Thirds will be applied on all dives.
   5. All appropriate safety or required decompression stops must be performed.

 

[Jack Hammer]

There are a lot of assumptions here. I truly can't say what did or didn't happen and to be blunt, it won't ruin my life either way. A few things I immediately question, besides the timing of this, are:

Did "it" actually happen? If at OG, was it the basin, the cavern, lower OG, or lower lower OG? Have other instructors taught similar classes there? Are they being/have been investigated? What was the outcome?

Who made the allegations?

What was their motivation (Is this a vendetta or are they a champion of cave diver training) ? If an instructor, Have they been accused of violations by any agency? if yes, is this somehow related/retalatory?

**Are there witnesses? Have they signed a complaint?

How long has the NACD been aware of this? How long has an investigation been pending? Are there other unknown factors at play?

 

[victorzamora]

I can tell you right now that both my IANTD intro cave and my IANTD technical cave card say:

Max Depth 130 FSW

Yes, the limit is the same for both certifications.

I'll be waiting for you to show me where IANTD standards were broken when I took my Trimix class in LOG.

So, you're stating that you did your Trimix training with Rob Neto. You're stating you did it in Lower Orange Grove. You're stating your Full Cave cert card certifies you to a MAX DEPTH of 130ft, which you violated. To me, that's a violation.

The fact that it's Full Cave, though, makes it better. At Intro, you're also explicitly limited to no decompression. Period. Besides any potentially specific loop-hole verbiage, it's pretty clear that a dive to LOG with an Intro Diver on Trimix is well beyond the intent of that certification level.

 

[Hetland]

You're stating your Full Cave cert card certifies you to a MAX DEPTH of 130ft, which you violated. To me, that's a violation.

How is that a violation if you're receiving trimix instruction?