Near-newby question: should I upgrade camera&housing or add a strobe?

[cephalophilia]

Hi,

Sorry if I come across as a bit ignorant on U/W photography and equipment. I need some help and advice on how to spend a bit of cash...

I have dabbled a little in taking pics while diving, using a Canon G9 in the Canon housing. The G9 is so-so - was considered good when I got it, but I haven't used it much. Topside I have some reasonably camera equipment and know what I'm doing: I use a 5D II and a ID Mark II (for sports/birding stuff) and have some ok glass. (I am guessing something like the 17-40L might be ok for U/W.)

I'm about to take a dive trip and I can afford to upgrade somewhat, and I'm wondering where to spend it:

a. Add a strobe to the G9 (I know the Canon case restricts choice here)
b. Buy a new/better compact and housing
c. Buy a housing for the 5D II.

The rub, of course, is that the quantity of money one needs to shell out (no pun intended) for a 5D housing PLUS dome PLUS strobe is probably beyond me. I mean, it's a lot and I'm on a career break so I have to be conservative.

Any thoughts on which is the route to go down?

 

[darook]

I think you would be quite happy with a strobe on your current setup. I have the Inon S2000 and it made my pns much better. I have since upgraded to a dSLR but that is a very expensive endeavor though I have enjoyed it immensely topside so far.

 

[asha]

I would suggest buying a good strobe for your G9 that you can use in the future with your 5DII if you eventually decide to make the leap to housing your DSLR. I think you will be surprised with how much better adding light makes your G9's UW photos!

 

[Gilligan]

I agree with the previous posts. Buy a strobe/tray/arm for your G9.
Also shoot at least the non-strobe shots in RAW for white balance purposes. JPEG will suffice for the strobe shots. You will get great results with the setup.
I am very happy with my G10 and G12 and my strobe.

 

[under water]

+1 for buying a strobe that you can use when you do eventually upgrade. My choice for strobe is Inon s2000.

 

[Hotpuppy]

I disagree. If you own a 5d and a 5d Mk ii you are more heavily invested than most scuba photographers. Money doesn't make you a good photographer though.... but the company you keep suggests you understand the glass and sensors. A G9 is a nice point and shoot... but it's exactly that. It's a nice dive camera.... the canon case is crap if you ask me..... I ruined one G9 with that case. The ikelite case is much nicer.

You can take okay pictures with a G9... here are the issues:
- NOISE - small sensor + low light + high amplification = lots of noise.
- Slow - it takes time to focus and in the meanwhile whatever you were shooting is gone.
+ cheap - if you ruin it... .well it's hardly more than the insurance premium for nice gear.
- Plastic lenses - Just not even in the ball park with EPS-C or EPS lenses from Canon... let alone something nice like 17-40 USM EFS f/4. (my personal fav).

Now, I've shot a G9 underwater and even gotten some of those pictures accepted for microstock including one that sold..... so it's doable.... but so is a pinhole camera. Neither are convenient. My EOS 40D runs circles around the G9 and my 5d Mk II makes the 40D look like a pinhole camera. I know you understand this if you have both 5D's.

In terms of CCUs (Canon Cash Units) - an ikelite case, modular port, and the decent 8 inch dome is only 2 CCU. In dollars that is $2k. It's going to cost about the same as 2 nice lenses. Cheapskating the dome is silly to me..... that dome determines if your $1000 lens can see or not. The Ikelite cases can be rebuilt annually for $100 and then recertified to depth. Cheap insurance compared to the cost of a camera and lens. You can get, and I recommend, dive insurance for your camera that includes coverage for flooding. It has a deductible, but it's still cheaper than a total loss.

You might be able to find a 5D housing if you scrounge around. My guess is that all the Canon SLR housings will work for the basic shutter... but the buttons do move around and that's why each model requires it's own case.

Now, Ikelite also supports TTL if you decide you want to dive a strobe......

I'm going to throw a rock..... (flame suit - ON). There are a ton of people who dive point and shoots and take snapshots. These folks are nice, but can't tell a snapshot from a photograph. Their pictures are still valid, as frankly success is in the eye of the beholder.... just realize that many of these experts are content to dive something like a SeaLife with manual flashes and call that photography.... which is akin to using a semi-disposable camera with a flash cube. There are people who get great shots from them... but the rest of the world has moved on to more interesting technology. So you will find many people who tell you that optically triggered manual flashes are a great idea. It's just one more thing to screw with besides photography and diving. As if both of those didn't require enough attention. I think that is crap.

Before I would encourage you to buy a strobe I would ask you to think about where you dive and what you like to photograph.... see if you can do it with a filter and natural light. The results are better. Of course at night you need a strobe....

So that brings me to my last point... the 5d Mk ii is the best sensor in the world under $5000. For one thing it's full frame. So it takes dreamy stunning HD video. There is a reason that someone on here was quoted as saying that Nat Geo shoots 5d Mk ii's underwater. There is a reason that it's the go-to camera for landscape. You own one, so I trust you "get" the camera.

The 40d vs the 5d mk II is a 3x leap in the quantity of colors perceived. No idea what the G9 to the 40D was...... but there is a HUGE difference there as well. More colors means better images...... and more details. the subtle details hide in the colors. Lastly speed..... the 5d is a nice 5 frames a second...... which means you can be sure you got the shot. Oh, and don't forget depth of field.... so you can manage your shot and get what you want.

 

[under water]

I disagree. If you own a 5d and a 5d Mk ii you are more heavily invested than most scuba photographers. Money doesn't make you a good photographer though.... but the company you keep suggests you understand the glass and sensors. A G9 is a nice point and shoot... but it's exactly that. It's a nice dive camera.... the canon case is crap if you ask me..... I ruined one G9 with that case. The ikelite case is much nicer.
.......
I'm going to throw a rock..... (flame suit - ON). There are a ton of people who dive point and shoots and take snapshots. These folks are nice, but can't tell a snapshot from a photograph. Their pictures are still valid, as frankly success is in the eye of the beholder.... just realize that many of these experts are content to dive something like a SeaLife with manual flashes and call that photography.... which is akin to using a semi-disposable camera with a flash cube. There are people who get great shots from them... but the rest of the world has moved on to more interesting technology. So you will find many people who tell you that optically triggered manual flashes are a great idea. It's just one more thing to screw with besides photography and diving. As if both of those didn't require enough attention. I think that is crap.
.....

Puppy,
The OP already said the G9 was so-so. He knows the quality diff between a G9 and a 5D II and a ID Mark II, as do the other posters. He also implied he needed to be frugal.

Besides dissing everyone before you that has given him advise, you seem not to have gotten the point of his post. Of course, if he wants to get the best possible quality and doesn't care about $$, he should pop for the housing and domes and the rest of the $$$$ of gear needed to house his $5K camera. Seems to me that investing about $600 for a tray, arms and a decent strobe for his G9 is a good alternative.
Also, I will accept your critique of folks who use Point & Shoots when you show some of your U/W work and compare it to some of those who have posted here. As you said, money and great equipment does not automatically translate into better quality photographs. Your comparison of a G9 and a decent strobe like the Inon s2000 to a " semi-disposable camera with a flash cube" is nothing short of absurd.

 

[JackConnick]

I think a lighting set with a strobe is a good upgrade, but since he DOES know the difference with a P&S and a DSLR, I would recommend a better strobe that can be used with a DSLR. The s2000 is marginal in power, and I don't ike it's "too small " form factor, I doubt that you can work it wearing gloves.

I would say a S&S YS110a or an Inon z240 (if you can find one) would give him a decent upgrade path later.

Jack

 

[JohnGiu]

OK,
So I get it you are KING Camera Geek. And I mean that in admiration.
So tell me what does a recreational scuba diver who wants just a little bit more than a 35mm point and shoot in a plastic case do?
Do I just get something like a Sea Life mini II and settle for what ever it gives me.
Or is it worth the investment in something like a Sea Life Sl700 dc1200 and later invest in a strobe.
I really don't want to be into Scuba pictures for thousands of dollars. But would like to take pictures that were actually worth the trouble of carrying the camera. Is there any option under $700 worth the money?

Thanks
John

I disagree. If you own a 5d and a 5d Mk ii you are more heavily invested than most scuba photographers. Money doesn't make you a good photographer though.... but the company you keep suggests you understand the glass and sensors. A G9 is a nice point and shoot... but it's exactly that. It's a nice dive camera.... the canon case is crap if you ask me..... I ruined one G9 with that case. The ikelite case is much nicer.

You can take okay pictures with a G9... here are the issues:
- NOISE - small sensor + low light + high amplification = lots of noise.
- Slow - it takes time to focus and in the meanwhile whatever you were shooting is gone.
+ cheap - if you ruin it... .well it's hardly more than the insurance premium for nice gear.
- Plastic lenses - Just not even in the ball park with EPS-C or EPS lenses from Canon... let alone something nice like 17-40 USM EFS f/4. (my personal fav).

Now, I've shot a G9 underwater and even gotten some of those pictures accepted for microstock including one that sold..... so it's doable.... but so is a pinhole camera. Neither are convenient. My EOS 40D runs circles around the G9 and my 5d Mk II makes the 40D look like a pinhole camera. I know you understand this if you have both 5D's.

In terms of CCUs (Canon Cash Units) - an ikelite case, modular port, and the decent 8 inch dome is only 2 CCU. In dollars that is $2k. It's going to cost about the same as 2 nice lenses. Cheapskating the dome is silly to me..... that dome determines if your $1000 lens can see or not. The Ikelite cases can be rebuilt annually for $100 and then recertified to depth. Cheap insurance compared to the cost of a camera and lens. You can get, and I recommend, dive insurance for your camera that includes coverage for flooding. It has a deductible, but it's still cheaper than a total loss.

You might be able to find a 5D housing if you scrounge around. My guess is that all the Canon SLR housings will work for the basic shutter... but the buttons do move around and that's why each model requires it's own case.

Now, Ikelite also supports TTL if you decide you want to dive a strobe......

I'm going to throw a rock..... (flame suit - ON). There are a ton of people who dive point and shoots and take snapshots. These folks are nice, but can't tell a snapshot from a photograph. Their pictures are still valid, as frankly success is in the eye of the beholder.... just realize that many of these experts are content to dive something like a SeaLife with manual flashes and call that photography.... which is akin to using a semi-disposable camera with a flash cube. There are people who get great shots from them... but the rest of the world has moved on to more interesting technology. So you will find many people who tell you that optically triggered manual flashes are a great idea. It's just one more thing to screw with besides photography and diving. As if both of those didn't require enough attention. I think that is crap.

Before I would encourage you to buy a strobe I would ask you to think about where you dive and what you like to photograph.... see if you can do it with a filter and natural light. The results are better. Of course at night you need a strobe....

So that brings me to my last point... the 5d Mk ii is the best sensor in the world under $5000. For one thing it's full frame. So it takes dreamy stunning HD video. There is a reason that someone on here was quoted as saying that Nat Geo shoots 5d Mk ii's underwater. There is a reason that it's the go-to camera for landscape. You own one, so I trust you "get" the camera.

The 40d vs the 5d mk II is a 3x leap in the quantity of colors perceived. No idea what the G9 to the 40D was...... but there is a HUGE difference there as well. More colors means better images...... and more details. the subtle details hide in the colors. Lastly speed..... the 5d is a nice 5 frames a second...... which means you can be sure you got the shot. Oh, and don't forget depth of field.... so you can manage your shot and get what you want.

 

[Divers Incorporated]

the canon case is crap if you ask me..... I ruined one G9 with that case. The ikelite case is much nicer.

I agree with the above statement and unfortunately I am pretty sure Ikelite will not have a G9 case so they may be hard to find. I agree with pretty much everyone who is on this post (albeit I kind of skimmed) but there are a couple of things that I suggest to my students when it comes to cameras and then you can go forward from there.

Depending on the money you want to spend, strobes are of tantamount importance. The G9 is ANCIENT as far as digital cameras go. I shoot a T1i and it is already "long of tooth" If you have around $2k to spend I would suggest finding a used G10 in an Ikelite strobe or if that isnt possible, find the means to get a G12 in an ikelite housing and get a DS 125 used or if you can afford it get the DS 161 movie from ikelite. The limiting factor is the price here. I agree with housing the 5D but that is a pretty expensive piece of electronics to take underwater if you aren't ready for the full DSLR. The learning curve with a dome can be pretty steep. If this is your end game(just not right now) the DS125 and above will all work towards that goal. It is my personal opinion though that you can't have enough strobe.

If your spending limit is less than the 2k I would still look into strobe you can hot shoe later down the road or you wil be just flushing money. Ikelite makes a remote sensor that is compatible with a DS125, DS 160 and DS161 movie that will work for you for a long time and multiple camera upgrades.

Hope this helps.
Rich