Neoprene Dry Suits? What's good, What's bad?

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USIA

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Location
Saint Helens, Oregon
USIA is seriously considering moving into neoprene seeing as how there are only a couple of USA manufactured companies currently in business. For USIA, the main purpose for moving in this direction is our standing in the military business, but I would like to introduce a new system to the Sport industry. I read a lot of all of your posts, and find them very informative. Basically, Harvey's and DUI are the only companies who make an American made Neoprene style dry suit.

What I would like from all of you is some advice on what you like in the Neoprene dry suit line choices, and what you don't like. What have been some of the major problems? What are some of the major advantages? What are some of the 'have to have' options (ie. Kevlar Knees ect.) What has your experience been with working with other manufacturers?

I really value all of your opinions, as you are all divers. Real divers, with real opinions and critiques. I would welcome all opinions, good and bad.
 
Hi Jerry,

I'm a first year diver with 75 dives and I decided I wanted to enjoy diving beyond the wet comfort months. This of couse meant buying a drysuit. Not knowing my long term enthusiasm (I can't imagine it waning but you never know) and having certain budget restrictions I had to make a decision. After reading endless posts, speaking with dive shops and trying on a trilam suit and seeing a budy's new neoprene suit I found this post. This post seemed to coalesce all that I had absorbed and cemented my decision.:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1085846&postcount=15

It may not be my last drysuit but for me first it made all of the sense in the world do me. I've made 2 real dives so far plus one that was more of a weight check in zero visibilty. I felt I had regained over 80% of my control almost immediatly. I'm using everyday thermal items (for a Mainer that goes out to play with his snowblower collection http://home.gwi.net/~spectrum/snowblower.html). My buddy is an avid snow skier and kayaker and he to had an ample supply of suitable garments. Essentially we are diving dry for what many bad suit diver pay in indergarments.

Like almost any dive gear no answer is for everyone but our stories are at least 1 market segment.

Pete
 
After owning (in this order) a Poseidon neoprene unisuit, an Oceanic flex trilam, a neoprene Oneil 7000, a black neoprene Oneil (no model?), and a DUI trilam TLS350 (w/ thinsulate 32-50 degree), I settled back to the Neoprene Poseidon Unisuit. Just for sheer warmth. What would I like to see in the ultimate neoprene suit?

Neoprene COMPRESSED TO 5mm (dont know if too stiff?)
built-in gators
sock feet w/ rubber soles
built-in 7mm hood
front diag zip w/ flap
double cuffs for dry gloves
melted shoulder & knee pads
auto cuff dump
waist pee zip
thigh pockets
roomy shoulders
 
I have used various trilams and both 7mm Atlan and O'Neil 7mm/5mm neoprene dry suits. Both were excellent suits.

I like the diagonal front zip from the standpoint of being easy to get into but despise the fit that results from the neccesarily longer torso needed to allow you to get your head in the diagonal opening. I have found that with a very slight amount of slack in the shoulders, it is possible for you to zip yourself into a back entry neoprene suit and it is easy to unzip yourself by clipping a 3' lanyard onto the zipper pull.

The zipper should be as heavy duty as practical. The zipper on my Diamond trilam was exceptional. Most others have been lighter and do not hold up as well.

From a commercial diving standpoint, I don't like cuff dumps as they always seem to get in the way. Same thing when diving with a deco bottle. And from a technical perspective, the cuff dump competes for forearm real estate where I would rather have a slate and bottom timer. I don't mind the sight roll needed to use a shoulder dump.

I am not a fan of the restiction added by attached hoods and prefer a neoprene seal and separate hood combination with an additional neck warmer if needed (it usually is not).

I like the low profile skin-in neoprene wrist seals on the O'Neil drysuits. However I do not like their use of 5mm neoprene on the sleeves. You lose a lot of warmth for relatively little gain in flexibility. It's what keeps it from being the perfect neoprene drysuit in my opinion.

Taping the inside of the neck seal joints is essential to prevent them from tearing.

Taping all inside seams should be considered mandatory.

Kneepads are a gotta have item on a neoprene suit, but they also need to have some stretch in them to prevent any restriction in mobility.

Thigh pockets are a plus for things like finger spools, dive knife, z-knife, etc.

A pee zip, or just enough extra room in that area to install a pee valve would also be desireable. For a neoprene suit, a hard rubber pad in the appropriate area where a pee valve could then be easily user installed would be a nice idea.

My preference in boots is a 7mm boot with a molded on sole. Care should be taken to avoid excess sole material on the sides as for a diver with wide feet, this will result in cramping.

A wide foot boot option would be greatly appreciated. As it is I have size 10 feet but have to go to size 12 boots to get enough width.

Light weight neoprene socks lack warmth and durability. Heavy rubber coatings just require excessive room in foot pockets. Hard sole "Rock Boots" are ok if you run around on rocks before or after dives, but involve to many comfort size and warmth restrictions to be desireable on 90% of recreational suits. Boat divers have zero need for them.

In my opinion, any drysuit design involves compromises and rather than developing a suit that does everything ok (and excels at nothing) it makes more sense to identify a specific market and design a suit for that market that meets those needs completely. So if you are designing a neoprene suit, target what neoprene does best.

In my opinion neoprene suits have three advantages.

1. Extreme warmth with lighter undergarments. I routinely take mine to 150 ft and while compression occurs, they are still warmer than a trilam and require less air and less management.

2. The potential to acheive a snug fit (with no loss of mobility due to the stretch of the material) translates into a much more streamlined drysuit (no folds or wrinkles on the surface) that has less air in it (without an uncomfortable squeeze) which all tend to make them swim much more like a wet suit with none of the positional limitations common to shell suit designs.

3. Low cost compared to trilams and vucanized rubber suits. I'd rather be able to spend $500 each for three neoprene suits over the years rather than spend $1500 on a trilam that has to last the same number of years.

Compressed neoprene suits were made popular by DUI (CF200, etc) but don't achieve number 1 to any great degree and fail to acheive 2 and 3 to any degee at all.

Field testing of the design is critical. It needs to be in cold water (50 degrees to 32 degrees) by real divers and at depths below 100'. When you get to that point, send me one, I'd be happy to test it.
 
Having dove neopreme drysuits that aren't crushed I found that a crushed suit works wonderfully and I use nearly half the weight I did with the none crushed.

I'm using the whites 45th special now and it's been great. Very durable knee pads and nice warm built in booties. It came with just the socks but I changed that right away as my toes froze with the socks and boots.
 
Al Mialkovsky:
Having dove neopreme drysuits that aren't crushed I found that a crushed suit works wonderfully and I use nearly half the weight I did with the none crushed.

I'm using the whites 45th special now and it's been great. Very durable knee pads and nice warm built in booties. It came with just the socks but I changed that right away as my toes froze with the socks and boots.




You mean "compressed" right? I'm interested in the bouyancy characteristics of the compressed neoprene. I know what the manufacturers say but I tend to not to strictly believe them.
 
I've never dived a neoprene suit, but I'll tell you why I avoided one...the weight required to sink it. I'm already buoyant anyway, so adding that much neoprene and extra weight compared to my 7mm farmer jane just wasn't in the LEAST appealing to me. (I dive only a few pounds heavier than normal in my trilam). I also HATE the buoyancy adjustment issues inherent with suit compression with regular neoprene.

However....if you did a *crushed* neoprene that didn't have those buoyancy characteristics, I could dive without tons of expensive undies for a reasonable price? Well, THEN we'd definitely have something to be talking about....'cause I just spent a *bundle* on a custom DUI trilam and now I'm looking at a bundle on thinsulate undies... :(.

Which reminds me....make 'em in WOMEN'S sizes as well and make a LARGE size range (large *and* small) to fit as many divers as possible. Remember that women's feet are differently sized than men's and we generally have larger hips than men do!
 
I dove with a group of DM's and instructors from different dive shops, representing different products, on Vancouver Island. They talked me into buying a drysuit.
They also talked me into a neoprene suit.

The air temp was hot, we wore shorts and t-shirts under our suits, the minute you got back on the boat, you could be relaxing in 90 degree weather in your shorts. After the SI, its quick and easy to be suited up and back in the water.

The system is simple.
Its tough.

Negatively:

It requires more weight.
Its heavy.
It doesn't pack in a suitcase well.
Takes a long time to dry.

I would like to try a compressed neo suit. It seems like a a perfect compromise.
 
evad:
You mean "compressed" right? I'm interested in the bouyancy characteristics of the compressed neoprene. I know what the manufacturers say but I tend to not to strictly believe them.
No the Whites are crushed, I forget who does compressed. Same result though. Mine is 4mil crushed and it's very toasty and to dive it I require 24 pounds of lead with all my polar undies on so very little weight and I weigh 215 and it ain't all muscle trust me.
 
I have a 7mm neoprene drysuit and I don't like it for 3 reasons: 1) it restricts my mobility, big-time. I can't reach my valve and that disturbs me. 2) it requires me to wear a lot of lead to sink in it. 3) I don't find it particularly warm -- I still need to wear a lot of layers (polypro & fleece x 2) underneath to keep me warm in the 30F-40F range.
I also have a White's Bilam, and while I'm not that much warmer in it while wearing polypro, fleece & thinsulate, it's a huge difference with mobility, and a slight difference with amount of lead required to sink.
So, my ideal neoprene suit would probably be crushed/compressed neoprene for mobility, plus hard boots for the rocky shoreline, and a low profile bellows pocket on each thigh. Latex seals would be nice. I will also add to what SadiesMom wrote: women have hips, butts as well as narrow shoulders, and we need our suits to fit them!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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