Newly certified, but

[k ellis]

Training is what it is. I mean its kind of like driving test. You study the manuals and you practice when you can (Hopefuly in a parking lot so to be legal) and then you go take the test. The test shows you can demonstrate the skills needed to drive but only under ideal conditions.

Scuba training is very similiar to drive training in that the real learning begins when you start going out and just start doing it. Your skills will develop in time just make sure to take it slow and find a good dive buddy

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I cannot tell you if you received enough or proper training. You can answer that. You should talk to your instructor, tell them of your concerns. If I had a student who was still apprehensive, then that means they are not ready to certify. I would take them back in the pool to work on skills and then make sure that they dove with me and my DMs for a bit. They can book my boat and I will be sure to accompany them. Completing skills and being confident in them are not the same thing at all. Talk to your instructor. If he/she doesn't want to help more(which they should), then find a different instructor or maybe even take the advanced adventure course. But be sure to talk to them.

 

[fjpatrum]

I haven't read any of the other comments yet but I'm also newly certified and will sort of compare our experiences. I'm guessing you had a PADI cert, based on the depth and information you've provided so far and mine is PADI.

Your quoted stuff is italicized, my response is in plain text.

I just completed my open water certification. I really question whether my skill level is sufficient to go into a dive situation. My training seemed rather inadequate. The following is my experience and self-evaluation of my skills. Skill testing was done in 18 foot of water.
I would say it's difficult to determine how well you control buoyancy at 18 feet, but all the other skills can easily be determined at that depth.

1. Air consumption was not discussed
I think this is a common thing in OW classes from what I can tell. I asked several times about air consumption during my class and during my dives (I did my dives on referral.) This is one of those areas I think just doesn't get covered well because there are so many people who get certified to do 1 or 2 dives a year and don't really need to know all the information that goes into gas consumption. I think it's easier for instructors to gloss over it and then get into it in later AOW courses or once the student has gotten beyond the "oh my God I'm breathing underwater" excitement and can actually control their breathing somewhat.


2. Air sharing (alternate air source) completed but not correctly done by my training buddy, he gave me the alternate regulator upside down, there was no mention by the instructor of this until I complained later that I was taking on some water through the regulator.

Personally I would see that as a good training opportunity. In the real world, things don't go right. Being given the reg upside down gave you the opportunity to learn what it feels like to blow bubbles the wrong way, and suck in some water in a "controlled" environment. You obviously cleared the reg and got things righted, so it's a good thing. It's good for the other students too, because they can then see that nothing dramatically bad will happen if such a thing happens to them underwater.

3. Buoyancy check and control attempted but could not stay on the submerged platform at 18 foot. Instructor added weight. my total weight was 26 pounds. I am sure that I was over weighted. I am 5'6 160 pounds was wearing a 7mm full suit with hood and gloves in fresh water. When I tried to discuss this the talk always came back to anxiety and being comfortable. I have no fear of water, or uncomfortable other than feeling that I was not performing well.
I would say you were probably a little over-weighted. I am 6'1" and between 165 and 170, though, and I had 16 pounds in my 2nd through 4th dives. I was wearing a lot of neoprene (more than 7 on my core and various levels of coverage everywhere) and felt a little over-weighted but I think that's pretty common for the cert dives. It takes time to really "dial in" your weight requirements. Lack of valid discussion is not helpful but, in most cases, I think it is a comfort/anxiety thing with us newbies so instructors fall back on that as an easy answer more than they probably should.

4. Controlled ascent and descent is hard to evaluate in 18 feet of water.
I agree with that. I was trying to determine my rate of ascent but couldn't figure it out on the computer I rented for my OW dives. The DM that did my ascents with me kept pulling me down though so I know I was going too fast. That's something I want to practice on my first few dives.

5.Emergence buoyant ascent completed but done poorly, did not exhale properly.
Recognizing this will make you a better diver. You can practice this by "ascending" while swimming underwater in a pool. It will give you the "muscle memory" without the worry of actually doing an buoyant ascent.

6.Mask clearing partial and full was well done
7.Regulator clearing blowing and purging well done
8.Regulator retrieval sweeping and reaching well done
This is also good to recognize. My OW dives didn't really do a great job with any of these skills, but I had to do them all constantly. My reg was kicked out of my mouth twice during our dives by my instructor or buddy because I was swimming too close due to low viz. Just remember to keep practicing these skills.

9.Navigation was minimum one point at a distance of about 125 yards with a buddy that could not keep on line
Navigation is one of those things that a lot of people find really difficult for some reason. It sounds like you felt more competent than your buddy. Remember to practice this one a lot and look for visual clues other than just a compass too. I found during my dives I didn't see anything when I was navigating but I consistently hit my mark and was the only person in my class who did. That said, everyone else in the class saw fish, and bicycles and all kinds of other stuff on our "navigation" dive that I completely missed. It's supposed to be fun, remember. Sometimes getting "off line" is a good thing, as long as you know how to recover from it.

10.My last dive which was a navigation and fun dive to end the class was interrupted by constantly going to the surface to look for my dive buddy in the limited visibility of 6-10 feet. He could not stay close.
This is going to sound rude, but it takes two people to be a good buddy team. If he couldn't stay close to you, that means you couldn't stay close to him either. Especially as newbies, we have a lot to think about and try to remember. I found I was better at "looking around for my buddy" than my buddy was, but she was also attached to the instructor (holding hands with) and I was not. As such, I think she felt like her buddy was there while I had a bit more of a "must keep track of them" attitude because I wasn't in physical contact with either of them for most dives. Some people are more comfortable and will naturally be a little better at focusing on more than the absolute necessities, while others of us will be less comfortable and more likely to forget to look around at our buddies, or our gauges, or whatever.

11.Dive tables done well
12. Classwork done well
Good and good.

13. Divelogging for day 1 done on day 2.
We did this too, and I must say I didn't much like it. I wasn't sure how I was supposed to fill it out (with or without details etc.) so I just filled in the statistics without my instructor (depth, temp, air at start, air at finish) and then wrote a couple blurbs on the second day when I finished it with the instructor.

14. Regulators in the pool seemed like quality equipment but the regulators for the open water portion I was given looked like less quality (plastic). To be honest, this is a perception only, I do not have the experience to properly judge this.
I'm going to say your second sentence is the realistic one here. Regs for the pool may have been kept in more controlled environments though so it's possible they were in better shape than rentals used in real world dives.

Again, I have no anxiety problem with being underwater or using the equipment. I know I need to improve my skills. Particularly, getting my weight requirements down. If I went to BVI to dive tomorrow I would have no idea how much weight to take.

Hopefully this thread will develop and I will learn something from the more experienced member of the board.

Thanks

Sounds like you were less thrilled with the course as a whole but you've gotten a good start and a realistic self assessment. I think, honestly, you're better off than a lot of newbies who think they're ready for the world. Keep practicing and I'm sure you'll find yourself fixing a lot of the issues you feel like you have now.

 

[samaka]

How did you choose dive school? What considerations went through the choice? Distance/location, price, recommendations?

Have you taken any action after the course like talking about your issues with the dive school owner, talking with the teaching agency, or the instructor?

Like ZD.3D I cannot say if the course was inadequate or not because I wasn't there and there are always two ways to see things but for sure there must be a reason you feel the way you do. There are some bad instructors that gives crap courses and there are some whining students that never will be happy however good the instructor. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are one.

Like k elly writes, the skills you get from diving and after finishing your course you will have enough knowledge to start getting your experience and skills. It's not supposed to produce The Perfect Diver on day of completion. You are not asked to take your kit and jump in on your own, or even with another newly certified. You're supposed to dive with divers with more experience and to gain skill and confidence. I have to say though, I think you'll be ok because you have the right attitude and you are aware of the fact that you don't have a black belt in diving yet.

.......a.......

 

[dburg30]

Being brand new certified, I can feel your concerns. But I look at the open water certification dives as just that. Dives to make sure that I was able to perform the skills shown, and not freak out / panic etc in darker, murkier, deeper water, with 'things' swimming with you . Did I perform all of the skills 100% perfectly? Hell no. Does that mean I shouldnt have gotten my c-card? IMO, not at all. Others may feel that you shouldnt get your card in that situation. But I think most would look at it more as did the student show they understood, and completed the tasks without any stress / panic etc etc.

I know I'm not ready to go out in the big water without more practice. I have the training, now it's up to me to practice and get better at diving.

 

[Peter Guy]

True in my OW class (NAUI). We were taught the rule of halves and the rule of thumb, 'never dive deeper in feet than your air supply in cubic feet'. You would think that the text at least would cover how to do the calculations if someone were interested.

I'm curious what you and Peter teach about gas management in your OW PADI classes.

Honest answer? Not much.

I wait for someone to ask (and someone ALWAYS asks -- "How long can I stay down on a tank?") and then we discuss the relationship between depth and consumption. While it IS a question on the final exam, it is in the simplest of forms and I hope begins to give the diver a sense that there IS an issue.

We do discuss the "Don't dive deeper than the size of your tank" but it is not discussed nor explained very much. I don't talk much about "All available gas dives" - "halves dives" -- or "Thirds dives" out of fear of overloading the students -- but if they ask, we'll discuss it.

During their OW dives, I will have them examine their air consumption, both as absolute numbers and as SAC rates -- again really just as a way of exposing them to the concept. (BTW, we may well log the first day's dives on the second day -- I don't have a problem with that.)

I also give them access to information about Gas Management that I have on my website, including a hard copy of my Cheat Sheet -- (www.belowandbeyond.biz is the website and there is a page with links to articles on GM and the Cheat Sheet)

My last bit is to let them know the OW class is just the beginning -- that we've barely scratched the surface regarding information and diving skills and that they really should take AOW and Nitrox (from me I hope) where they'll get a lot more theory.

 

[mwemery1000]

I just finished with my certification as well - both OW and AOW. I lucked out and had a great instructor for OW (and then the same person for AOW) and she took me through my paces. Yes, we went through all of the skills, several ad nauseum (mask removal and swimming without the mask - every dive!) but there were reasons for that. She said she wanted to make sure that I was comfortable with the challenges (the "what ifs") and I could work on the other issues like buoyancy and trim over time and with practice. All that being said, even with a great instructor, I wasn't sure I was ready for my first dive without an instructor, until I did it. It happened to have been a night dive and I was with a guide and 2 other people. The other two people were a couple so they were buddies - I thought, "Great, the guide will be my buddy". Not the case - I was tagging along on an AOW class dive that the other two were taking so the guide said that I was pretty much on my own. Gulp! Actually, it was the best thing for my confidence. I was with a group but on my own. I realized that, hey, I can do this. I had a blast! I went straight into doing the AOW course so I could work on specific skills, like buoyancy and navigation.

The things to do: 1) Dive; 2) take the AOW course, or at least the Peak Performance Buoyancy class (I learned a huge amount from that) and the Navigation class (fun class! - learn a lot from that one as well).

When I started the OW class, I was weighted with 16 kg. (all dives, including confined done in open water (the Red Sea) ("confined" dives just done in a certain area of Bannerfish Bay). By the end of the third confined dive I was down to 12 kg. When I finished the PPB class, I was at 8 kg and that seems perfect (for the Red Sea) for me.

Air consumption was talked about a little in the OW course but not a whole lot - she said that as I get more comfortable with my skills, I will become better at air consumption - not to worry too much about it. In the AOW course, we talked about it in much more detail, monitoring it much more closely and working on skills to lengthen my stay underwater and at differing depths. The biggest thing that helped with my rate was just diving more. The more I dove, the less anxiety I had (worrying about what I was or wasn't doing right), the easier I breathed, the longer we could stay down.

Interesting, in the alternative air skills, we were taught that when you need to use your buddy's alternate air, you signaled to him or her that you were OOA, he or she "exposes" their source (moves their arms away from their chest area), and YOU reach over and take it - it is not handed to you. That being said, I agree with fjpatrum, good learning opportunity!

My learning opportunity came on my third dive(and subsequently every third dive since) - blood looks green underwater! I have a sinus issue that results in a bloody nose every third or fourth dive - filling and clearing my mask is a piece o' cake for me now! (yes, spoke with my doctor, scheduled for a CT scan when I get back to the States in a few weeks).

Main thing now is to go diving and have fun with it! If you lived in Norway, I would love to go diving with you and just work on skills - I am sure there are others out there that would like to do the same!

Happy diving!

 

[on_two_wheels]

I was going to call out some of the comments here but will just keep to myself.

I'll keep this brief. Yes, OW training is pretty basic. Diving with someone else that has a whopping 5 dives (and maybe vague training like your's) is NOT a good dive buddy yet. The BEST thing you could do is find a mentor. I've been fortunate to find a couple dive buddies that are simply phenomenal in the water and still learn as much as I can when I dive with them. Sometimes I'm still learning stuff while just visiting and having a beer, such as gas planning.

You have identified your own weaknesses. If you know that the skills were not done properly, that means you know how they are supposed to be done. So practice until you can do them right. Just be sure to do it with a skilled diver (again, mentor) present and shallow. However, I do not recommend practicing a CESA. Just my opinion.

 

[kaerius]

2. Air sharing (alternate air source) completed but not correctly done by my training buddy, he gave me the alternate regulator upside down, there was no mention by the instructor of this until I complained later that I was taking on some water through the regulator.

If your buddy was certified without redoing it and showing mastery, your instructor broke standards.

3. Buoyancy check and control attempted but could not stay on the submerged platform at 18 foot. Instructor added weight. my total weight was 26 pounds. I am sure that I was over weighted. I am 5'6 160 pounds was wearing a 7mm full suit with hood and gloves in fresh water. When I tried to discuss this the talk always came back to anxiety and being comfortable. I have no fear of water, or uncomfortable other than feeling that I was not performing well.

Buoyancy checks are usually done at the surface. Overweighting students is a crutch for poor instructors.

5.Emergence buoyant ascent completed but done poorly, did not exhale properly.

1) I hope you mean controlled emergency swimming ascent.
2) Then you didn't meet the perfomance requirement and so the instructor broke standards for certifying you.

All in all, seems like sloppy instructing. I'd send a letter to QA.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Well here we go again. I'm going to restrict my observations to how I feel OW divers should be trained and how I train them. Using your points and the observations of some others.

1. Air consumption- I cover thirds, rock bottom, and SAC rates. I also go over the no dives deeper than the capacity of your tank. We also include emergency deco procedures
2. Air sharing- Includes Alternate Air shares, buddy breathing, and swims doing both in the pool. with and without mask. In OW we do alternate and that may occur at any time during any dive. I swim up to you or give your buddy the sign to signal OOA.
3. Buoyancy and weight checks are done every pool session at the beginning (7-8 sessions) and at the end on the last two or three with tanks around 500 PSI. In OW the first buoyancy check is done in exposure suit only before the snorkel/skin dive. Then again with scuba gear. Just did that this weekend. We also recheck on the second day. One student decided she was heavy so we took 2 lbs off. She did better at that weight. Could also have been that she was more relaxed the second day as well. Buoyancy control is practiced the entire dive. In fact we used a site that is fairly shallow. Max 30 feet or so. But we did 4 dives with a total overall bottom time of 3 hours and 19 minutes. At least 50% of that between 18 and 10 practicing staying in trim and performing skills. On sunday one student noticed one of my back up lights was on and kinda wonky in the harness of my express tech. At 12 feet she swam up. Gave me the freeze signal and proceded with out getting vertical to remove the light, turn it off, and restow it properly. She did not alter her postion while doing this nor did she attempt to steady herself on me in any way. Buoyancy control if taught early and given time to practice is not beyond the reach of the avg open water diver.
4. Agreed. I do it from 22-25 feet
5. Not done in our system but the emergency buoyant ascent is in others. I could add it if I chose to.
6. Ok
7&8. Ok
9. Navigation for new OW divers is a team effort and one way to facilitate that is to introduce and insist on buddy skills from pool session one.
10. In low vis nav is possible and in fact easier as there are less distractions. But again poor buddy skills and lack of proper buddy training shoot it in the ass every time. It should not look like someone pulled the trigger on a sawed off when the instructor says go.
11&12 OK
13. On one occaision I had to delay this due to the student forgetting their actual logbook. We did put the info on paper and they filled it in at home and I signed off the next day. No biggie
14. The equipment we use in the pool is what is used for OW dives.

"As for going into a dive situation, remember, as a newly certified diver, you shouldn't be solo'ing or even buddy diving with other inexperienced divers."

This statement by another poster regarding the soloing is correct. As for the rest BULL CRAP! As a newly certified OW diver you should indeed be perfectly capable of planning ,executing, and safely returning from a dive. In conditions equal to or better than that in which you trained with a buddy of EQUAL training and experience. If not, your training DID NOT MEET the stated goals of OW training as accepted by many agencies under RSTC guidelines.

Further observations:

"I would say it's difficult to determine how well you control buoyancy at 18 feet, but all the other skills can easily be determined at that depth."

Agreed, better to be doing in shallower! If you can hold stops and swim consistent at 10-15 you know at 30 it'll be a piece of cake!

"OW training is pretty basic. Diving with someone else that has a whopping 5 dives (and maybe vague training like your's) is NOT a good dive buddy yet"

Strongly disagree here. The best buddies can be the newest divers if they actually know what a dive buddy is and were trained to be one.

"But I look at the open water certification dives as just that. Dives to make sure that I was able to perform the skills shown, and not freak out / panic etc in darker, murkier, deeper water, with 'things' swimming with you"

Again disagree. While they may have dengenerated into this the dives are also supposed to give you real world experience. It is one reason I have changed training sites to one that has a shop on site. Not as deep as others but deep enough and close enough that we are doing 45 minute to one hour long dives. Skills only take a few minutes planted on a platform. Doing them while swimming and actually diving is very different I have found. 20 minute checkouts may meet some agency standards but they do not meet mine. Mine take precedence. My own OW checkouts as I look back were 35, 30, 28, and 26 minutes. OK but still not up to the standards I consider minimum for a good experience. I pretty much know from the pool and the task loading students are subjected to that they are not going to freak. The possibility is always there. But if I think someone is prone to it they are not going to OW until that is resolved.

OW training is not just to allow you to "survive". It should instill comfort, confidence, and skill. By the time you finish your checkouts you should be ok with going back to that site with a buddy and no instructor. If not, somewhere, somebody, messed up.