Nitrogen and Red Blood Cell Rigidity

[Dr Deco]

Dear Roak:

I have included a graph under ATTACHMENTS. I would suspect that if nitrogen caused the effect, it would reach a plateau at 66 feet (red line).

If pressure caused the aggregation effect, it would continue to rise with increasing depth (blue line).

If adding helium to the nitrogen cause a limited reversal, I would suspect that the “aggregation index” would begin to fall at about 66 feet as the He is added (green line).

The Red Line is apparently what occurs.

Dr Deco :doctor:

 

[roakey]

I'm not saying that straight pressure causes aggregation, I'm saying that if PPN2 caused aggregation the red line is EXACTLY what you'd expect to see (and did).

In other words their experiment lacked a control. I'm hypothesizing that if they had not introduced He until a greater depth the red line would have continued to rise until the He is introduced, just like it did up to 66 fsw.

If this is in fact that case (and we don't have the data to prove it one way or another) that would mean that the He, or perhaps better stated the lesser PPN2 caused by the introduction of He is "good."

Roger

Ps. Note I'm not addressing any reversal claims here at all.

 

[Dr Deco]

Hello Roger:

If one leaves aside the concept of aggregation reversal, then these data would indicate that aggregation did change as the pressure of nitrogen increased. It cannot be stated that the effect was or was not caused by nitrogen from this experiment. You are correct in what you say.

[I do not have the actual data before me, and it must be remembered that my graph is for illustration only.]

Dr Deco :doctor:

 

[Uncle Pug]

Perhaps it would be more fruitful to directly ask George Irving what studies he is drawing upon to reach his conclusions. I hear he is a real nice guy and will answer emails.

How about it BillP.... would you drop him a note and then fill us all in?

 

[rcohn]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Perhaps it would be more fruitful to directly ask George Irving what studies he is drawing upon to reach his conclusions. I hear he is a real nice guy and will answer emails.

How about it BillP.... would you drop him a note and then fill us all in?

Bill doesn't seem to be around so I thought I give you a few links (in no special order) to the original discussion that started his interest in the red blood cell rigidity claims.

http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=293032&t=293032
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=282440&t=282328
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=277992&t=277662
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=270455&t=270338
http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=265688&t=265688
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?48005,subject

Ralph

 

[Uncle Pug]

...I am working at reading through them.

 

[Uncle Pug]

That settles it.
BillP has already done more than what I was suggesting....
I need to spend more time off of scubaboard....
And I need to get 400g thinsulate

 

[The Iceni]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
And I need to get 400g thinsulate

Does thinsulate induce "aggregation reversal"?ut:

I am very interested in this thread which appears to be another example of an extrapolation too far - Assocaition is not causation!

As this concept is new to me I will do some reading on it. Like all scientifice proofs not only must the data be statistically significant it must also be independently reproduceable.

Yes Roaky, what is the significance of 66 feet? Very odd at first sight (and this is only my first thoughts on this subject) as these were not immersion dives this cannot be a reflection of dehydration caused by the immersion diuresis, which immediately sprung to mind.

(By the way, I have just read some of the "discussion" on the scubadiving threads. Isn't scubaboard civilised in comparison!)

 

[BillP]

rcohn said...


Bill doesn't seem to be around so I thought I give you a few links (in no special order) to the original discussion that started his interest in the red blood cell rigidity claims.

Thanks for digging up those links, Ralph. I was indeed gone for the weekend.

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Perhaps it would be more fruitful to directly ask George Irving what studies he is drawing upon to reach his conclusions. I hear he is a real nice guy and will answer emails.

How about it BillP.... would you drop him a note and then fill us all in?

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

BillP has already done more than what I was suggesting....

Yeah, I strolled by that hornets' nest once already. When I tried to ask around with the people who were basing their comments on certain studies, no one seemed to really remember where the information they were drawing their conclusions from came from. Amazing the abuse one can get from just asking questions. Luckily Jim Hoffman from Scuba Toys had a lead for me and was actually willing to help. His tip led me to the studies.

Bill

 

[pescador775]

Just popped in to see what whacky theories are in the air. The evil CO2 seems to have dropped off the radar screen to be supplanted by our nemesis, N2. Could 'aggregation' and 'rigidity' explain some of those headaches? Might the cause be N2 and not CO2? After all, free divers, including 'newbies' , rarely report headaches and these folks soak up a lot of CO2 but little N2. I'm not counting divers who smoke in bars.

Things haven't changed around here. Divers know little about medicine and medicos know little about diving.

Oh yes, don't forget the aspirin before going under.