Nitrox vs. Regular Air?

[mempilot]

That would be the advanced trimix course.

Really? I just scratched TDI off my list of training agencies to use in the future based the crap you've been spouting off here in this thread. I wonder if Stephen Phillips would back you on ramblings? You must know who Stephen is, right?

 

[texdiveguy]

Really? I just scratched TDI off my list of training agencies to use in the future based the crap you've been spouting off here in this thread. I wonder if Stephen Phillips would back you on ramblings? You must know who Stephen is, right?

I have been reading you 2 fellows 'ramblings on'.... just don't see the point in you both badgering each other on this forum thread.....go have it out on PM's! Sorta appears an ego fight at this point...knowone wins.

I have no clue as to your foe's TDI background (his SB bio says TDI Deco Proc.), but I can assure you that TDI offers great training and programs. So I would hope you are not serious about your previous statement. Not sure if Mr. Phillips/UK looks at SB, but I know Steve Lewis does.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

.... just don't see the point in you both badgering each other on this forum thread.....

Agree with that and more! Ahem, this is the New Divers and Those Considering Diving forum; no-stop recreational diving with air &/or nitrox is as far as this forum should really go.

 

[mempilot]

Sorry, think you've got it wrong here. Although Tech is usually a reference to overhead environment, recreational diving is defined as no-stop diving to a depth of no more than 40 meters with most mainstream agencies (Apart from BSAC which operates with 50 meters and deco - which in my book is tech, but that's a different discussion). So maybe a NDL dive to 150 feet would not fall into the tech category by default, but it would fall outside of the recreational diving category, so make of it what you will.

Once again, you choose not to understand what you read. I said IANTD's Rec Trimix course mates up well with deeper rec NDL dives. That is a seperate sentence from, "It is possible to do NDL dives deeper than 130 fsw." The two sentences are mutually exclusive. IANTD's Rec Trimix course was formed to allow divers to maintain an END no deeper than 80 fsw. That means, the diver can add He to their Nitrox or Air mix to go deeper than 80 fsw without experiencing the narcosis associated with the deeper depth. Rec Trimix allows the diver to do this down to 100 fsw or deeper if the diver is qualified.

Maybe so, if you are doing 150ft dives as NDL's - But since 5 minute bottom time is on the low side to do any work, I kind of assumed we were discussing the depth limits of the mainstream recreational agencies when we were discussing recreational diving. I totally agree that a normal slow ascent with helium is not dangerous. But pop down to an average tourist dive centre, and see how many recreational divers do a normal slow ascent.

Ever heard of a multi-level dive? You show a complete lack of understanding for anything beyond PADI Open Water. Assuming a diver is qualified to go deeper than 130 fsw, and they planned a NDL multi-level reef wall dive to 150 fsw with a recreational trimix of 25/25. They could easily do 5 minutes at 150, ascend to 110 and do another 5 minutes, ascend to 80 and do another 5 minutes, and then ascend to the top of the reef and do a 15 fsw safety stop, all within NDL while enjoying a huge vertical portion of the wall.

You must be one of those tourist type divers you speak of, because you seem very afraid of recreational trimix yourself. That being said, I have a hard time believing you have any training in any above the standard nitrox cert.

Divers who are competent enough to go down the tech route would probably be totally safe with recreational trimix, but these divers tend to go down the tech route. If your buoyancy is not good enough to hold formal deco stops, I would suggest helium might not be the best idea in the world.

Totally disagree here. Rec Trimix is no harder than Nitrox. It makes the deeper limits of nitrox safer, and the class takes about an extra hour to learn. It is a course to alleviate going down the tech route for recreational divers who actually realize they suffer from narcosis. Needing bouyancy skills are part of basic OW, Advanced OW for doing drift and night dives, and many other normal OW skills. If you think staying at a single depth is that hard with trimix, you are all by yourself there. LOL

Yes, narcosis is indeed a factor, and if all divers dived recreational trimix, I dare say the outcome of a lot of the incidents might have been fatal. Or maybe some incidents would never have happened, but some that hasn't happened might have. It would be interesting to get the views of a dive doc in regards to this matter - Given that a lot of the chamber rides around the world are due to rapid uncontrolled ascents on air or nitrox, what do you reckon the outcome would be if all these were on trimix?

You are a dramatist, and I think the outcomes would be the same. There are good divers and bad divers. That is what the instructor is for; to dertermine who earned the card and who didn't. I earned mine. Did you?

Because a recreational dive tends to be shallower than 30 meters for the majority of divers - A few do 40 meters, and it starts to make sense to dive trimix, but then it starts making sense to add in 10-15 minutes of stops, and actually have time to look around as well.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing my arse off on this statement. 10-15 minutes of stops just because you did a dive to 40m??????? There is no way you are Advanced Trimix certified. If you did a dive to 128 fsw with 30/10 trimix, you would need to exceed 25 minutes at maximum depth before you would need 15 minutes of stops. I think most divers would be more than happy to do a multi-level dive and get 15 minutes of combined bottom time and keep it in NDL. If the dive site required more bottom time than that, then Decompression Procedures would be in order. BTW, we have a lot of recreational dives here in South Florida in the 100 to 130 range (all great targets for Rec Trimix).

No, I have never argued that trimix hasn't got a purpose, but not in shallow diving. Trimix is a deep(ish) gas - Nitrox is a shallow gas, so I'm saying the antagonists had it wrong, and one ought to use the right gas for the dive in question.

I wouldn't consider 60 fsw to 130 fsw to be shallow. Neither does PADI or any of the other recreational dive agencies. For the sake of this discussion, this deeper end of this range is the depths I'm talking about for Rec Trimix. 100 to 130 is a perfect match for a shot of He in a diver's nitrox.

You made a statement which pretty much said that there was no point in Nitrox - Trimix is the way to go. That is a false statement - You have the greatest benefit of Nitrox in fairly shallow water - You have the greatest benefit of Trimix in fairly deep water. See my point?

That is not what I said at all. I believe Nitrox is a great gas down to 100 fsw. After that, Rec Trimix makes sense down to 130 fsw.

You might not agree, but I'm telling you, your original post came across as if you meant people should forget about Nitrox and go for Trimix instead (and your subsequent posts came across as if someone disagreed with you, they were stupid).

You misdiagnosed my statement; and through your subsequent ramblings, you have opened yourself up to the scrutiny you got from me. It isn't arrogance. Many people in this thread are reading what you have typed, and in many cases, it is just plain false or sensationalized. While what I said may make people currious about furthering their dive training and education further; what you have said will scare them away from ever doing so. I haven't said anything about Rec Trimix that isn't true or easily found in training materials that I own. You, however, have quoted Wikipedia, and as far as I can tell, have spouted your own misinformation about a gas you do not understand fully. If you were TDI trained on Advanced Trimix, you would not be quoting Wikipedia.

To use Trimix safely requires CONSIDERABLY more in-water time than using Nitrox, so by throwing out the trimix comment, not only did you come across as a little bit of a cyberdiver with big words and little knowledge (although I understand this is not the case..) but you also potentially made divers with insufficient dive experience to use trimix safely think that they ought to go and do a trimix course instead of the nitrox course they were considering.

First sentence: WRONG. You think I sound like I don't know what I'm talking about? The only reason I went into any of this in the first place was to make sure the people that have will follow this thread have a true representation of the stuff you seemed to want to make scarry. BTW, trimix training requires nitrox training. So, last sentence: WRONG. I'm calling BS on your claimed training level.

So in the spirit of making peace, I will agree with you that on dives to the deeper end of the recreational depths, for divers with sufficient experience and skill to do it safely, trimix is not a bad idea. (Be that on an NDL dive or a deco dive). But let's be clear, we're talking about maybe the top 5% of the diving population in terms of skill and knowledge here.

There's a 180 degree turn, but I still disagree with you about the top 5% comment. If a diver can handle nitrox, they can handle trimix, and that should be about 90%. If not, they shouldn't be diving at all. After all, neither nitrox nor rec trimix is rocket science. It's just a simple set of rules and new tables to look at. The concept is no more difficult to understand than Boyle's or Dalton's Laws that they learned in OW.

I'm tired of typing, so please don't say anymore that would require someone to debunk your statements.

 

[bfuqua]

granolatree, you have some very good advise here. I have been using Nitrox for several years now and I simply leave my computer on air and use the Nitrox for the safety factor most of the time. The big bonus is that I feel much better and have a great deal more energy after several days of Nitrox versus several days of air. That is enough for me...

 

[mempilot]

I have been reading you 2 fellows 'ramblings on'.... just don't see the point in you both badgering each other on this forum thread.....go have it out on PM's! Sorta appears an ego fight at this point...knowone wins.

I have no clue as to your foe's TDI background (his SB bio says TDI Deco Proc.), but I can assure you that TDI offers great training and programs. So I would hope you are not serious about your previous statement. Not sure if Mr. Phillips/UK looks at SB, but I know Steve Lewis does.

I wouldn't actually scratch TDI off my list. I actually have 3 cert cards from TDI myself, 2 from PADI, and 5 from IANTD. And since none of these are what I consider foo foo addon certs and 8 of them are technical in nature, I wanted to make sure that anyone following this thread didn't start believing some of the crap that was getting posted. A simple statement has turned into one guys personal crusade to put out bad information. I know a lot of recreational divers personally that cruise this board. I wouldn't want them to be deterred by any of his nonsense.

 

[texdiveguy]

I wouldn't actually scratch TDI off my list. I actually have 3 cert cards from TDI myself, 2 from PADI, and 5 from IANTD. And since none of these are what I consider foo foo addon certs and 8 of them are technical in nature, I wanted to make sure that anyone following this thread didn't start believing some of the crap that was getting posted. A simple statement has turned into one guys personal crusade to put out bad information. I know a lot of recreational divers personally that cruise this board. I wouldn't want them to be deterred by any of his nonsense.

It's nice to hear that you are still a supporter of a good well round technical agency as TDI.

I know I for one as a forums reader take most of what I read with a healthy grain of salt, and I bet many others do to.

Now lets go dive,,,,for me it's been 2 dang weeks and I am already in withdrawls--lol!

 

[mempilot]

Now lets go dive,,,,for me it's been 2 dang weeks and I am already in withdrawls--lol!

Just got back from a trip tonight. I'm headed out to dive tomorrow afternoon on the Hydro Atlantic with an all CCR group that we have down here in SE FL. Should be a nice dive: 172 fsw MOD, 160 fsw TOD, 30 minutes BT, 60 minutes RT. 21/35 DIL. 21/35 OC Bailout and ean50/O2 for contigency OC Deco. The dive gods have put the winds out of the west, so the seas should be lying flat!

 

[espenskogen]

Once again, you choose not to understand what you read. I said IANTD's Rec Trimix course mates up well with deeper rec NDL dives. That is a seperate sentence from, "It is possible to do NDL dives deeper than 130 fsw." The two sentences are mutually exclusive. IANTD's Rec Trimix course was formed to allow divers to maintain an END no deeper than 80 fsw. That means, the diver can add He to their Nitrox or Air mix to go deeper than 80 fsw without experiencing the narcosis associated with the deeper depth. Rec Trimix allows the diver to do this down to 100 fsw or deeper if the diver is qualified.

whatever..

Ever heard of a multi-level dive? You show a complete lack of understanding for anything beyond PADI Open Water. Assuming a diver is qualified to go deeper than 130 fsw, and they planned a NDL multi-level reef wall dive to 150 fsw with a recreational trimix of 25/25. They could easily do 5 minutes at 150, ascend to 110 and do another 5 minutes, ascend to 80 and do another 5 minutes, and then ascend to the top of the reef and do a 15 fsw safety stop, all within NDL while enjoying a huge vertical portion of the wall.

yes, on nice tropical reef dives you can do multi level. here, we've got deep wrecks in cold water so we go down to max depth and stay there until we start the ascent.

You must be one of those tourist type divers you speak of, because you seem very afraid of recreational trimix yourself. That being said, I have a hard time believing you have any training in any above the standard nitrox cert.

ok, getting fed up of this. The fact that you can't seem to have a discussion without attacking my training are remarkable.

Totally disagree here. Rec Trimix is no harder than Nitrox. It makes the deeper limits of nitrox safer, and the class takes about an extra hour to learn. It is a course to alleviate going down the tech route for recreational divers who actually realize they suffer from narcosis. Needing bouyancy skills are part of basic OW, Advanced OW for doing drift and night dives, and many other normal OW skills. If you think staying at a single depth is that hard with trimix, you are all by yourself there. LOL

i didn't say its hard. i said most divers have poor buoyancy.

Yes, narcosis is indeed a factor, and if all divers dived recreational trimix, I dare say the outcome of a lot of the incidents might have been fatal. Or maybe some incidents would never have happened, but some that hasn't happened might have. It would be interesting to get the views of a dive doc in regards to this matter - Given that a lot of the chamber rides around the world are due to rapid uncontrolled ascents on air or nitrox, what do you reckon the outcome would be if all these were on trimix?

You are a dramatist, and I think the outcomes would be the same. There are good divers and bad divers. That is what the instructor is for; to dertermine who earned the card and who didn't. I earned mine. Did you?

you clearly have all the cyber diver cards available.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing my arse off on this statement. 10-15 minutes of stops just because you did a dive to 40m??????? There is no way you are Advanced Trimix certified. If you did a dive to 128 fsw with 30/10 trimix, you would need to exceed 25 minutes at maximum depth before you would need 15 minutes of stops. I think most divers would be more than happy to do a multi-level dive and get 15 minutes of combined bottom time and keep it in NDL. If the dive site required more bottom time than that, then Decompression Procedures would be in order. BTW, we have a lot of recreational dives here in South Florida in the 100 to 130 range (all great targets for Rec Trimix).

And what is wrong with 25 minutes of bottom at max depth? This is exactly what I was saying - For divers doing 40 meter dives certainly here in the UK, deco procs make great sense.

I wouldn't consider 60 fsw to 130 fsw to be shallow. Neither does PADI or any of the other recreational dive agencies. For the sake of this discussion, this deeper end of this range is the depths I'm talking about for Rec Trimix. 100 to 130 is a perfect match for a shot of He in a diver's nitrox.

Compared to 150 - 200 fsw, it is. Most rec divers stay shallower than 100, since the 100 - 130 depth require more training, if you're following the agency rules. Again a very small minority of rec divers.

That is not what I said at all. I believe Nitrox is a great gas down to 100 fsw. After that, Rec Trimix makes sense down to 130 fsw.

That's exactly what you said.

You misdiagnosed my statement; and through your subsequent ramblings, you have opened yourself up to the scrutiny you got from me. It isn't arrogance. Many people in this thread are reading what you have typed, and in many cases, it is just plain false or sensationalized. While what I said may make people currious about furthering their dive training and education further; what you have said will scare them away from ever doing so. I haven't said anything about Rec Trimix that isn't true or easily found in training materials that I own. You, however, have quoted Wikipedia, and as far as I can tell, have spouted your own misinformation about a gas you do not understand fully. If you were TDI trained on Advanced Trimix, you would not be quoting Wikipedia.

That Wikipedia article links to GUE's article on Oxygen Windows. Was simply to not have to explain gas laws in detail here. Maybe you should read up on it.

First sentence: WRONG. You think I sound like I don't know what I'm talking about? The only reason I went into any of this in the first place was to make sure the people that have will follow this thread have a true representation of the stuff you seemed to want to make scarry. BTW, trimix training requires nitrox training. So, last sentence: WRONG. I'm calling BS on your claimed training level.

I am aware of Trimix requiring Nitrox training. You can call whatever you want - I have nothing to prove to you.

There's a 180 degree turn, but I still disagree with you about the top 5% comment. If a diver can handle nitrox, they can handle trimix, and that should be about 90%. If not, they shouldn't be diving at all. After all, neither nitrox nor rec trimix is rocket science. It's just a simple set of rules and new tables to look at. The concept is no more difficult to understand than Boyle's or Dalton's Laws that they learned in OW.

It's not, but it require better in-water skills. Seems you're the one choosing not to understand

 

[lazyturtle]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this question, but I couldn't find any thread for Nitrox questions! (Am I just blind?)

Lately we have been going around to different shops asking about their different philosophies on equipment, air, etc. Why is it that some shops are pushing Nitrox, and in some cases giving a better deal on Nitrox than air? Are there any long term benefits of diving with Nitrox? I've been told of the benefits of diving deeper with Nitrox (longer bottom time, shorter decompression stops, less fatigue after the dive, etc), but would it be beneficial for your typical recreation diver to use Nitrox as well?

The owner of one of the shops in town won't even let his employees dive with regular air unless they are just going to be in a pool training. Other than that, it's either Nitrox, or going to a different shop to fill their tanks! One of the other shops in town, they say that Nitrox is for the technical diving crowd, and not to even waste the extra money if you are just going to be rec. diving.

Any thoughts?

I just had to repost the OP because I didn't see any connection between it and some of the other stuff I saw in this thread.

So in answer to the original questions:
Some people claim that they are less fatigued after diving NITROX. Personally I've never felt this and (I have read in the past that people were not able to tell in a blind study, but don't ask me to quote where) and wonder if they feel less fatigued because they expect to feel that way..mind over matter..
The NDL increases do exist BUT if you're not good on consumption, NITROX will not be able to extend your bottom time in any real way. If you find your dive time is limited by NDL NITROX will help, if it's limited by what's in your tank it will not.
There are increased risks to diving NITROX in terms of dealing with oxygen but these risks are mangable, if you're a responsbile dive planner/diver.
Cost: NITROX costs more. Most shops that I've looked at the price, it tends to be about $5-10 more per tank than air. That can add up mighty quick.
DCI: To my understanding if you dive the NDL on both a tank of air and a tank of NITROX, you'd have the same percentage risk of getting bent (~.05% though I'm sure someone will have some other number...the point is it's small).
Overall if the NITROX training is cheap, take it. It wont hurt to have the option. If it's expensive, I'd pass. I've worked for LOTS of shops that didn't carry NITROX.
Also be aware that you'll need to have your gear serviced with NITROX compatible parts. This shouldn't cost any more,