And one thing we may be overlooking is that Artifical Reefs main purpose is not fishing or diving. It is providing a place for marine life to grow and live. Perhaps Pensacola has some rare fish no one cares about that needs a home?
Oriskany Vote Taken - Pensacola!
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Michael, I think the "big picture" WAS looked at, and the dirty politics cost Miami their shot.
This was not a "bit of politics." It was an "all stops out" misinformation flood.
Dive Miami was at DEMA with an amazing propaganda machine. They alleged criminal misconduct on the part of the FWC in its original determination (the violation of the sunshine law they alleged), but it is interesting to note that nobody has been indicted or faces charges in this "violation."
They also solicited PADI to send an email to ALL of their pros claiming, according to PADI, that if they didn't get their pros to lobby the LEGISLATURE (to overturn the FWC's decision!) that the carrier was going to go NOWHERE. In other words, it was either Miami or not at all, and they tried to get the Florida Legislature to do an end-run around the process! They actually DID get a bill to the floor with this tactic from the FLOOD of angry phone calls, but the bill was later withdrawn - did the sponsors see through the ruse? A couple of days later, PADI issued what amounted to a retraction stating that they had no preference on WHERE the carrier went. On the phone they related to me that they were FURIOUS at being "had" by the Dive Miami people.
Now let's look at a few facts here.
1. The "20 mile" claim has to do with OFFSHORE distance. Get out your charts gents, and tell me how far OFFSHORE the vessel is, as the crow flies.
2. There are a number of "cattle boats" as you mention in this area, and most of them are quite slow. They will not be going out there at all. Those are the boats with these tickets, primarily. The "six pack" charters, which have no such limit (as an OUPV vessel there is no such thing, as the vessel itself is uninspected, although there may be an endorsement on the captain's ticket) are the ones which will be running out there on a regular basis, they tend to be 20 knot or better vessels, and they are very much competent to be there.
3. Fishing is a valid concern. Hell, many divers fish - I know I do. I just use a speargun most of the time
Second, a wreck like this makes for an awesome WHOLE DAY on the water - dive part of it, fish the other part. To try to close a wreck to fishing, which would have been the effect of the Dive Miami location due to the constant presence of dive boats there, is unreasonable, unconscionable and unfair. Wrecks that are intentionally sunk are not present only for divers OR fishermen - they are there for ALL users of the resource! Attempts to claim wrecks for "divers" SHOULD fail; we are owed no more (or less) consideration than anyone else.
4. To claim that there are "no technical diving friendly operations here" is simply not true. There are several. I know of only one here in Destin, but there are several of them over in Pensacola that I know of. Yes, most of the dive boats here (as in Miami!) are not technically-oriented, and most are really aimed towards the recreational diving sector. So what? If you want to dive this wreck and charter a boat to do it, you'll be able to. If you just want to dive it, you'll also be able to - I'm sure that LOTS OF US (myself included) will be out there on a regular basis.
5. To play the "economic impact" card or "more divers = better deal" card means that SE Florida should, by your reasoning, get ALL of the wrecks. That's clearly silly. The SE Florida and Keys areas have gotten essentially ALL of the artificial reefs/wrecks thus far. As I noted, we have exactly ONE deep wreck of significant size - the Ozark - and she went down a bit ahead of schedule (the last human aboard here during Eglin's "tests", who's charge was to operate and maintain some of the high-speed cameras that were on her, is a diving friend of mine. Quite a bit of their gear went down with the ship when she sunk unexpectedly.)
The "safety issue" is mostly a red herring. If someone is really screwed (as in blowing off ALL deco) on a 200+' dive, they're probably toast. If not, there simply isn't much of an issue. We do have people who get bent here from time to time. Most of the local boats have experience with chopper evacs, and we do have chamber support in this area in both Panama City and Pensacola. Second, for most boats around here you are talking a 1 hour run (at max speed, not cruise if someone is hurt!) back to Pensacola (irrepsective of where they came from originally) and I know of no commercial boat here that does not have 2 man-hours of O2 on board. Hell MY boat has 2 man-hours of O2 on board at all times, and that doesn't include any DECO GAS that someone might have. Really, Mike, are you going to claim that if you've got a boat full of tech divers, and someone gets screwed, you don't have more O2 on board than is in the DAN kit? Give me a break - what's in all those MOD 20 bottles huh? Is there something magical that says that if I am screwed I can't have some of that? The med kit's real value is that I can use that O2 throgh a pocket mask or on a non-rebreather if someone is so bad off they can't manage a regular demand valve. For a conscious, but screwed, diver, they'll have a selection of O2 bottles (if the trip was a tech trip with deco gasses on board) to use on the way in, plus we have excellent chopper support available here.
You also have the current situation down there, which doesn't exist up here. I've never seen a 3 knot current anywhere except in the Destin Pass here. The worst days I've seen out in the vicinity of where this wreck is sited to go had currents of about 1/2 - 3/4 knot on the bottom - kind of a pain in the butt of you're spearfishing, but hardly undiveable. My understanding is that the area where the DM folks wanted to place the Oriskany is notorious for extreme currents. While significant current might not be as big of a deal with scooters, is a scooter suddenly a requirement to be a "real" diver?
As I and others have noted, there are over 400 additional naval vessels sitting in mothballs that can be deployed. How about if we demand that the various factions that would like a few be strongly censured or even boycotted for attempted lying and misrepresentation? If we manage to convince the Navy that these "gifts" from Uncle Sugar are going to turn into catfights, complete with allegations of criminal misconduct, orchestrated political advocacy based on lies and all the other trappings of a Presidential race, we may get NONE of these vessels - here or anywhere else.
Dive Miami's affiliates deserve our scorn for their behavior during this process, and, IMHO, a boycott, until and unless they apologize and vow to sin no more.
Let's all work towards getting ALL of these ships deployed and let's also work towards having them available for ALL uses of the resource - including both divers and fishermen.
Jhvie also makes a good point - the primary consideration here is resource habitat. We are habitat poor. The Miami area is habitat rich, both naturally and from its existing wrecks. From a standpoint of expanding the marine life habitat, Escambia made a LOT more sense than Dade.
This was not a "bit of politics." It was an "all stops out" misinformation flood.
Dive Miami was at DEMA with an amazing propaganda machine. They alleged criminal misconduct on the part of the FWC in its original determination (the violation of the sunshine law they alleged), but it is interesting to note that nobody has been indicted or faces charges in this "violation."
They also solicited PADI to send an email to ALL of their pros claiming, according to PADI, that if they didn't get their pros to lobby the LEGISLATURE (to overturn the FWC's decision!) that the carrier was going to go NOWHERE. In other words, it was either Miami or not at all, and they tried to get the Florida Legislature to do an end-run around the process! They actually DID get a bill to the floor with this tactic from the FLOOD of angry phone calls, but the bill was later withdrawn - did the sponsors see through the ruse? A couple of days later, PADI issued what amounted to a retraction stating that they had no preference on WHERE the carrier went. On the phone they related to me that they were FURIOUS at being "had" by the Dive Miami people.
Now let's look at a few facts here.
1. The "20 mile" claim has to do with OFFSHORE distance. Get out your charts gents, and tell me how far OFFSHORE the vessel is, as the crow flies.
2. There are a number of "cattle boats" as you mention in this area, and most of them are quite slow. They will not be going out there at all. Those are the boats with these tickets, primarily. The "six pack" charters, which have no such limit (as an OUPV vessel there is no such thing, as the vessel itself is uninspected, although there may be an endorsement on the captain's ticket) are the ones which will be running out there on a regular basis, they tend to be 20 knot or better vessels, and they are very much competent to be there.
3. Fishing is a valid concern. Hell, many divers fish - I know I do. I just use a speargun most of the time
Second, a wreck like this makes for an awesome WHOLE DAY on the water - dive part of it, fish the other part. To try to close a wreck to fishing, which would have been the effect of the Dive Miami location due to the constant presence of dive boats there, is unreasonable, unconscionable and unfair. Wrecks that are intentionally sunk are not present only for divers OR fishermen - they are there for ALL users of the resource! Attempts to claim wrecks for "divers" SHOULD fail; we are owed no more (or less) consideration than anyone else.4. To claim that there are "no technical diving friendly operations here" is simply not true. There are several. I know of only one here in Destin, but there are several of them over in Pensacola that I know of. Yes, most of the dive boats here (as in Miami!) are not technically-oriented, and most are really aimed towards the recreational diving sector. So what? If you want to dive this wreck and charter a boat to do it, you'll be able to. If you just want to dive it, you'll also be able to - I'm sure that LOTS OF US (myself included) will be out there on a regular basis.
5. To play the "economic impact" card or "more divers = better deal" card means that SE Florida should, by your reasoning, get ALL of the wrecks. That's clearly silly. The SE Florida and Keys areas have gotten essentially ALL of the artificial reefs/wrecks thus far. As I noted, we have exactly ONE deep wreck of significant size - the Ozark - and she went down a bit ahead of schedule (the last human aboard here during Eglin's "tests", who's charge was to operate and maintain some of the high-speed cameras that were on her, is a diving friend of mine. Quite a bit of their gear went down with the ship when she sunk unexpectedly.)
The "safety issue" is mostly a red herring. If someone is really screwed (as in blowing off ALL deco) on a 200+' dive, they're probably toast. If not, there simply isn't much of an issue. We do have people who get bent here from time to time. Most of the local boats have experience with chopper evacs, and we do have chamber support in this area in both Panama City and Pensacola. Second, for most boats around here you are talking a 1 hour run (at max speed, not cruise if someone is hurt!) back to Pensacola (irrepsective of where they came from originally) and I know of no commercial boat here that does not have 2 man-hours of O2 on board. Hell MY boat has 2 man-hours of O2 on board at all times, and that doesn't include any DECO GAS that someone might have. Really, Mike, are you going to claim that if you've got a boat full of tech divers, and someone gets screwed, you don't have more O2 on board than is in the DAN kit? Give me a break - what's in all those MOD 20 bottles huh? Is there something magical that says that if I am screwed I can't have some of that? The med kit's real value is that I can use that O2 throgh a pocket mask or on a non-rebreather if someone is so bad off they can't manage a regular demand valve. For a conscious, but screwed, diver, they'll have a selection of O2 bottles (if the trip was a tech trip with deco gasses on board) to use on the way in, plus we have excellent chopper support available here.
You also have the current situation down there, which doesn't exist up here. I've never seen a 3 knot current anywhere except in the Destin Pass here. The worst days I've seen out in the vicinity of where this wreck is sited to go had currents of about 1/2 - 3/4 knot on the bottom - kind of a pain in the butt of you're spearfishing, but hardly undiveable. My understanding is that the area where the DM folks wanted to place the Oriskany is notorious for extreme currents. While significant current might not be as big of a deal with scooters, is a scooter suddenly a requirement to be a "real" diver?
As I and others have noted, there are over 400 additional naval vessels sitting in mothballs that can be deployed. How about if we demand that the various factions that would like a few be strongly censured or even boycotted for attempted lying and misrepresentation? If we manage to convince the Navy that these "gifts" from Uncle Sugar are going to turn into catfights, complete with allegations of criminal misconduct, orchestrated political advocacy based on lies and all the other trappings of a Presidential race, we may get NONE of these vessels - here or anywhere else.
Dive Miami's affiliates deserve our scorn for their behavior during this process, and, IMHO, a boycott, until and unless they apologize and vow to sin no more.
Let's all work towards getting ALL of these ships deployed and let's also work towards having them available for ALL uses of the resource - including both divers and fishermen.
Jhvie also makes a good point - the primary consideration here is resource habitat. We are habitat poor. The Miami area is habitat rich, both naturally and from its existing wrecks. From a standpoint of expanding the marine life habitat, Escambia made a LOT more sense than Dade.
I really hope that you aren't implying by the use of "surface intervals" here that they would do their free diving after having completed a SCUBA dive.
Reel Crazy14
Contributor
I'm glad Pensacola got it!In jacksonville, a 20 mile run is normal for me and we usually go to 32 miles. I'm sure it is no different in Pensaola. Since it is sunk off of a less populated area, I think it might attract more fish because of less fishing/spearing pressure. Off Miami/WPB you would get everyone and their uncle out there all trying to fish/dive this popular wreck. In a matter of months it would already be fished/speared out. You S. florida folks already got countless shipwrecks! You are also no more than 2 hours away from the keys! Give it a rest and let someone else have a world class wreck right in their backyard!
aue-mike
Contributor
I don't really want to discuss what did or didn't occur in regard to politics. I am simply looking at this in regard to diving...
True, it is 20 miles to the nearest land. I have not looked at the chart to see if it would be within 20 miles, but it looked close.
I didn't say they wouldn't. I was simply saying that the demand could easily be filled by operators moreso in the SE than in the NW. There are simply more dive boats and more inlets to leave from, and a shorter ride, which would allow for 2 daily trips by each operator.
Genesis once bubbled... 3. Fishing is a valid concern. Hell, many divers fish - I know I do. I just use a speargun most of the time
I agree. I consider myself a diver and a fisherman (spear and angling). Coming from the Mid-Atlantic, all day trips 30-40 miles offshore were the status quo.
I don't think the wreck would be closed off to fishing at all if it was off SFL. Dive boats would be running very predictable times in the morning and afternoon. There would be plenty of time to fish the wreck without divers. Further, the wreck is huge. I have been on wrecks while people are fishing it. It really is not a problem off SFL, and if there is a current, you drift off after the dive to clear it for others. Further, there are other wrecks or types of fishing in very close proximity to where they wanted to put this, so once the divers showed up, you could go a bit offshore looking for mahi, or a bit north or south to another artificial reef. HOWEVER, the NW contingent really played this as a fishing reef, and something this big will attract a lot of boats to fish the wreck.
Again, the point I wanted to make is that this is an aircraft carrier. This is very unique and would create a world-class dive. I personally think that it would much more appealing and/or much more unique to dive an aircraft carrier than fish it. It will definitely produce fish in the NW, but any generic big wreck would.
I did not say there were no technical diving friendly operations. I did say that the infrastructure is not very strong. I also said that dive operators were not receptive to technical diving -- I should have said most dive operators were not receptive to technical diving. This is accurate. There are a few boats that will allow technical diving. The one local shop that runs tech trips to the OZARK from Destin, only did so recently. When I first tried to track one down just a couple years ago, they would not do it. There was one boat out of AL that would do it occassionally. I called every shop/charter boat I could track down, as well as some fishing charter boats, to see about catching a ride to the OZARK and other wrecks. You would not believe the responses I got. One guy in particular pretty much gave me a religious sermon about how I had no business being out there.
I am not aware of any shops that pump helium up there. In contrast, SFL has been active in tech diving for over a decade, and I could call up over a dozen boats just off the top of my head that are experienced in running tech trips; I also know of many shops that pump helium, etc.
I am sure I could find a boat to dive this wreck in the NW. I am just wondering if supply will be able to keep up with demand. I also wonder because of the limited number of operators (as compared to SFL), if you won't see some price gouging...
If you are running trips there, perhaps we can charter your boat? <G>
Not necessarily. But let's be realistic, this is a bit different. This is an aircraft carrier. This would be the largest deployed artificial reef in the world. This would be the most accessible aircraft carrier dive in the world, being one of only four diveable carriers (and I use one of those very, very loosely since it is in over 500 feet of water, but has been dived).
No, it is not. Ask any hyperbaric physician if immediacy of treatment is not an issue and see what their answer is. This is what the Escambia people implied in their presentation. This also is not a technical diving issue. With this type of marquee wreck, you will attract all sorts of 2-dives-a-year, novice-recreational divers who may require medical attention if something happens. The fatality on the Spiegel Grove recently? That occurred from 50 feet to the surface AGE, not a technical dive, and not a diver that got lost in the wreck. Accidents will occur on this wreck regardless of where it is sunk due to the number of divers it will attract. Therefore, one should not scoff at having abundant choices for treatment and fast response. I hope nothing happens to anyone at any time, but one must be realistic here - for example, in a really bad situation here we are potentially talking about having to do CPR on a victim for two hours, versus 30 minutes. And I am sure you know CPR is extremely grueling. I can't imagine having to do CPR for 30 minutes, let alone two hours or more.
That is good to know. I was not implying that NW operators are incompetent. Safety is still an issue, because at the meeting they basically had to compare/contrast all these issues as it related to each region. That is all I am saying. SFL cited fast response times, numerous hospitals and hyperbric facilities, etc. This is obviously a function of the proposed site's proximity to shore. NWFL basically blew it off. One woman also stated that they don't have any problems off Pensacola, and "maybe you all need all those hospitals down there." I don't think they took this issue seriously enough, and diver safety was one of the MARAD/USN site selection.
Again, I am not so worried about myself. However, recreational divers -- which will be the majority of divers visiting this wreck -- will basically only have the boat's supply. With all due respect, I think recreational divers will also be the most prone of having a dive emergency that would require O2, if only due to the greater numbers of recreational divers visiting the wreck compared to tech divers.
True, but current will not cancel recreational dives. I have done recreational drift dives off WPB and other areas. I believe they do it in Cozumel and many other locations around the world that are recreational in nature. You simply change your approach on how to dive a site with current. It actually would probably be safer, in the fact ideally you would have a divemaster/dive guide that could keep the group together, would know the wreck well, and could keep (recreational) divers from venturing into places they don't belong. If nothing else, something akin to the dive guide protocol they utilize in diving the SARATOGA at Bikini. This would be extremely beneficial, especially considering the potential for one-weekend a year divers being on the boat.
You don't need scooters, and you don't need to be a technical diver to dive in currents. Once on the wreck, undoubtedly there would be places to get out of the breeze.
You are also missing the benefit of the current -- on one dive you could drift the entire length of the wreck and see lots more than on a dive with no current.
Again, not my interest. Yet, it could be said the regional voting of the commission also should raise some eyebrows, especially considering some of the statements made by them on the record at a public meeting.
Agreed.
Agreed. But again, it is only one of the numerous MARAD/USN criteria, and also one of many criteria of the National Fishing Enhancement Act of 1984 and the National Artificial Reef Plan. If this was the sole criterion, and economics really was not a major factor, we would sink this carrier and prohibit all fishing and consumptive diving (or all diving) on it. That would produce the greatest potential ecological benefits.
Cheers,
Mike
blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
According to the info I have found, 25 miles would put her in anywhere from 120 to 320 feet deep. From basic research on the ship I found the following.
displacement: 27,100 tons
length: 888 feet
beam: 147½ feet
draft: 31 feet
speed: 33 knots
complement: 3,460 crew
armament: 8 5-inch guns, 14 3-inch guns
aircraft: 80
class: Oriskany
Another site listed her height at 87m (291 feet) but that's unconfirmed.
I have an area listing on bluecharts I can post if anyone wants to look at the area.
Also from what I gather it would be better if she's not upright but a slight lisp 'uphill'
Ed
According to the info I have found, 25 miles would put her in anywhere from 120 to 320 feet deep. From basic research on the ship I found the following.
displacement: 27,100 tons
length: 888 feet
beam: 147½ feet
draft: 31 feet
speed: 33 knots
complement: 3,460 crew
armament: 8 5-inch guns, 14 3-inch guns
aircraft: 80
class: Oriskany
Another site listed her height at 87m (291 feet) but that's unconfirmed.
I have an area listing on bluecharts I can post if anyone wants to look at the area.
Also from what I gather it would be better if she's not upright but a slight lisp 'uphill'
Ed
Well, if you want to include that criteria (total resource benefit) at all, then NWFL is the place for the carrier, since it won't get the pressure here that it would in SEFW by any stretch of the imagination.
Politics, however, are inescapable in this game. Look at what has happened with the cave diving situation. You have a couple of agencies that use their resources to open sites and keep them open (even by buying land when necessary!) and then you have one that uses ITS resources to fund their own pet projects and abjectly refuses to work for the betterment of divers, but plenty of betterment for themselves (their members.)
Dive Miami tried something similar but on a MUCH larger scale, and included pecuniary benefit (for the shops involved) on top of it! That drew my ire, and may draw the financial retribution of the folks up here - as well it should.
It is within 20 miles of nearest land, by the way. I know where the site is and have fished that area generally many times.
More commercial boats is not necessarily good. There will be plenty of opportunity to get out there from this area..... and the trip time pressure is, IMHO, bad rather than good.
If you want a shop that will pump helium, I can turn you on to one. If you want a shop that will set up and organize a tech trip, I can get you in touch with the same folks.
The Ozark, by the way is NOT in the same class as the proposed Oriskany site - its WAY more complicated. But this shop would almost certainly run to the Ozark if you wanted to foot the bill. The Ozark has several things going against it, specifically that its FORTY miles out and in over 300' of water. Its also a "real" wreck, not a cleaned thing, as it sunk while being used for ordinance practice.
I haven't dove it but HAVE fished it; I'm not comfortable at those depths as of yet.CPR for 2 hours? C'mon. That's the least of the problems, as I'm sure you know. If you have a 2 hour CPR stint the patient is almost certainly dead.
You and I both know, Mike, that the cases where real assistance can be provided to a diver in distress (e.g. the diver is NOT dead) are not those where 30 minutes of CPR is being done. 99% of the time, if you're doing CPR on a diver, the game is over and done. That's a fact, and no amount of spin changes it.
Most boats around here carry at least a man-hour of oxygen and some carry considerably more. Its enough to get you back to land; even if you came out of Destin you could always go IN to Pensacola, and I probably would if someone was screwed. Second, there is a pretty good helicopter evac capability around here, which unfortunately has had to be used more than once in this area.....
Supply (of charters) will be just fine, I suspect. As for my boat, I don't do charters, but I do split fuel (which is perfectly legal) with friends. Do 'ya wanna be friends Mike?
You'll have to get your own Helium, but I know where you can find that around here if you're supply-challenged (You are correct that some shops think dives like the Ozark are insane. If you wanted to do the Ozark on my boat you'd have to live boat it, because I don't have the ground tackle to hook it, nor would I try in that depth. But that's ok - I won't chop you up
)It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but frankly, I think the FWC folks made the right choice - and not just because I want the carrier here. As you've noted, it is a long run, even for me - but I have a really serious problem with people being rewarded for outrageous acts.
I don't mind advocacy - that's expected. What bothers me is when people go to the level of intentional deceit.
NO good decisions are made when people are dishonest Mike. Sending a strong signal that such actions will not "win" is not only a good idea, it is, IMHO, mandatory.
I do not have the exact coordinates but do have the general area; it is north of the Nipple, in ~250 feet of water, a stomping grounds that I have fished for several years. It is roughly SE from the Pensacola pass and SW from Destin. My understanding is that in "sinking trim" she will come just under 200' off the bottom, and there is a requirement that there be at least 50' of clear water over the structure under both Florida State and Federal Rules for reefing.
[One dive? Bawahahahahaha...
As soon as its down and open for diving you can bet that I'll be down there with my video camera [/B][/QUOTE]
I was gonna start a movement to get it sunk in Tampa Bay, this way small planes can still land on the deck and we could dive the 40 feet to the bottom and see the props !! But hey Pensacola is a great place for the wreck....
As soon as its down and open for diving you can bet that I'll be down there with my video camera
[/B][/QUOTE]I was gonna start a movement to get it sunk in Tampa Bay, this way small planes can still land on the deck and we could dive the 40 feet to the bottom and see the props !! But hey Pensacola is a great place for the wreck....
aue-mike
Contributor
If you want a shop that will pump helium, I can turn you on to one. If you want a shop that will set up and organize a tech trip, I can get you in touch with the same folks.
The Ozark, by the way is NOT in the same class as the proposed Oriskany site - its WAY more complicated. But this shop would almost certainly run to the Ozark if you wanted to foot the bill. The Ozark has several things going against it, specifically that its FORTY miles out and in over 300' of water. Its also a "real" wreck, not a cleaned thing, as it sunk while being used for ordinance practice. I haven't dove it but HAVE fished it; I'm not comfortable at those depths as of yet.
I know a few operations that will run tech trips. Again, I am sure you may know people that have access to helium, but I don't think any shop in this general area advertises that capability. I also know some people who have boosters and access to mixed gas, but that is the status quo up there - knowing friends or the good 'ole boy system. In contrast, there are numerous shops in SFL that pump mixed gas -- or have the more popular blends banked -- and advertise this; they also rent doubles, deco bottles, etc. I don't know of one shop in the Panhandle that does that, so a visiting diver from overseas that wants to do a tech dive is SOL. I know there are many fine tech divers in the Panhandle, but there is no comparison of the commercial tech diving infrastructure between SFL and NWFL.
I have dived the OZARK and it is awesome. I don't think it is over 40 miles from Destin Pass, but perhaps closer to 30. If you have the coordinates for Destin Pass I can confirm this.
I also know a couple charters that will run out there. It still is a pain in the ass to get a ride and is rather expensive for the rather short run compared to other charters that run 60-80 miles or more.
FWIW, we always use a liveboat protocol as it is more efficient and safer for our dives. Since we have our own shotline, floatball, and grapnel, setting up for a dive on any vessel is really not a problem for us either...
Supply (of charters) will be just fine, I suspect. As for my boat, I don't do charters, but I do split fuel (which is perfectly legal) with friends. Do 'ya wanna be friends Mike? You'll have to get your own Helium, but I know where you can find that around here if you're supply-challenged
With the situation that I think will arise with the carrier off NWFL, I would definitely like to be your friend. <G>
Personally, gas and gear is not a problem for me. That discussion was raised as for other visiting divers it will definitely be a problem.
We should definitely talk some more, as I would love to get back out to the OZARK, and I have 3 or 4 other numbers for unknown wrecks in that general vicinity as well.
(You are correct that some shops think dives like the Ozark are insane. If you wanted to do the Ozark on my boat you'd have to live boat it, because I don't have the ground tackle to hook it, nor would I try in that depth. But that's ok - I won't chop you up)
Not a problem - we have all the tackle and toys. It is just a matter of waiting for the consistently good summer weather next year. Oh, and waiting for the carrier to be sunk, which I suspect may take quite a while...
I do not have the exact coordinates but do have the general area; it is north of the Nipple, in ~250 feet of water, a stomping grounds that I have fished for several years. It is roughly SE from the Pensacola pass and SW from Destin. My understanding is that in "sinking trim" she will come just under 200' off the bottom, and there is a requirement that there be at least 50' of clear water over the structure under both Florida State and Federal Rules for reefing.
I have the proposed coordinates somewhere in my meeting material. It would be 23 miles SSE from Pensacola Pass, and 33 miles WSW from Destin if I remember correctly. There is no standard amount of clearance - it depends on the site and the COE permits. The Escambia permitted reef site requires 55 feet of clearance.
The Ozark, by the way is NOT in the same class as the proposed Oriskany site - its WAY more complicated. But this shop would almost certainly run to the Ozark if you wanted to foot the bill. The Ozark has several things going against it, specifically that its FORTY miles out and in over 300' of water. Its also a "real" wreck, not a cleaned thing, as it sunk while being used for ordinance practice.
I haven't dove it but HAVE fished it; I'm not comfortable at those depths as of yet.I know a few operations that will run tech trips. Again, I am sure you may know people that have access to helium, but I don't think any shop in this general area advertises that capability. I also know some people who have boosters and access to mixed gas, but that is the status quo up there - knowing friends or the good 'ole boy system. In contrast, there are numerous shops in SFL that pump mixed gas -- or have the more popular blends banked -- and advertise this; they also rent doubles, deco bottles, etc. I don't know of one shop in the Panhandle that does that, so a visiting diver from overseas that wants to do a tech dive is SOL. I know there are many fine tech divers in the Panhandle, but there is no comparison of the commercial tech diving infrastructure between SFL and NWFL.
I have dived the OZARK and it is awesome. I don't think it is over 40 miles from Destin Pass, but perhaps closer to 30. If you have the coordinates for Destin Pass I can confirm this.
I also know a couple charters that will run out there. It still is a pain in the ass to get a ride and is rather expensive for the rather short run compared to other charters that run 60-80 miles or more.
FWIW, we always use a liveboat protocol as it is more efficient and safer for our dives. Since we have our own shotline, floatball, and grapnel, setting up for a dive on any vessel is really not a problem for us either...
Supply (of charters) will be just fine, I suspect. As for my boat, I don't do charters, but I do split fuel (which is perfectly legal) with friends. Do 'ya wanna be friends Mike?
You'll have to get your own Helium, but I know where you can find that around here if you're supply-challenged With the situation that I think will arise with the carrier off NWFL, I would definitely like to be your friend. <G>
Personally, gas and gear is not a problem for me. That discussion was raised as for other visiting divers it will definitely be a problem.
We should definitely talk some more, as I would love to get back out to the OZARK, and I have 3 or 4 other numbers for unknown wrecks in that general vicinity as well.
(You are correct that some shops think dives like the Ozark are insane. If you wanted to do the Ozark on my boat you'd have to live boat it, because I don't have the ground tackle to hook it, nor would I try in that depth. But that's ok - I won't chop you up
)Not a problem - we have all the tackle and toys. It is just a matter of waiting for the consistently good summer weather next year. Oh, and waiting for the carrier to be sunk, which I suspect may take quite a while...
I do not have the exact coordinates but do have the general area; it is north of the Nipple, in ~250 feet of water, a stomping grounds that I have fished for several years. It is roughly SE from the Pensacola pass and SW from Destin. My understanding is that in "sinking trim" she will come just under 200' off the bottom, and there is a requirement that there be at least 50' of clear water over the structure under both Florida State and Federal Rules for reefing.
I have the proposed coordinates somewhere in my meeting material. It would be 23 miles SSE from Pensacola Pass, and 33 miles WSW from Destin if I remember correctly. There is no standard amount of clearance - it depends on the site and the COE permits. The Escambia permitted reef site requires 55 feet of clearance.
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