OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[doctormike]

Honestly reconciling 1 and 4 is not possible unless you are a younger person who appears and feels relatively healthy and has not seen a doctor since childhood. There is no allowance on the form (1) for personal judgement for disclosure (4). I think that is where the debate lies. If it’s understood that the form is a liability release, then choosing 4 over 1 seems reasonable.

Yeah, and I don't think that I'm explaining myself that well. I guess what I'm saying is that there are two things - the paperwork that you need to train, and stuff that you need to disclose to people who are diving with you.

So I don't see why - if you have a medical clearance note - you need to give RSTC or PADI or your instructor information about your history of depression or recreational marijuana usage, especially since you have no way of knowing how that will be stored or disclosed in the future. The note should satisfy those entities from a liability point of view, and ideally would also be good medical care, since you would have had whatever workup your doc felt necessary to clear you.

However, if you are, say, allergic to peanuts and carry an epi-pen, I think that it's a good idea for anyone you are spending any time with to know about that.

So as far as reconciling #1 and #4, I would just do like @rsingler said upthread and have a good honest consultation with a qualified doc (based on your particular medical needs), and have them decide if you were fit to dive. If so, they would sign the form and then you can do the training. And if you had a specific thing that your dive buddies needed to know about, I would share that information with them. Why is that a conflict?

Now, I do understand what I think is your point - if the training agency insists on you disclosing PHI even IF your doctor has cleared you, then you have an ethical issue if you say "no" when something should be "yes". From the discussion upthread, as per @tridacna's conversation with the PADI training director, if you have the docs signature, then you don't need to fill out the questionnaire. I'm assuming that's the case, but even if it wasn't, the issue that I had about lying on the form was that you shouldn't lie to get OUT of a medical consultation and clearance.

 

[Jcp2]

Then I’m going to posit that the majority of divers in paradise (older vacation divers) are lying.

 

[doctormike]

Then I’m going to posit that the majority of divers in paradise (older vacation divers) are lying.

You are probably right! But again, I think that we were talking about training. I believe it when people say that they were asked to fill out the RSTC form for non-training dives, I just have never seen that.

 

[tridacna]

I’m always suspicious when an “older” (>50) diver fills in the RSTC with all no answers. But there’s nothing I can do nor want to do when that happens. All NOs below 50 is a rara avis these days. Statins rule.

 

[JackD342]

Medical Statement for non-training: Someone earlier in the thread did give some specific examples of where they had experienced it, so even though I don't recall running into it myself, I do believe it does sometimes happen, and maybe more often than I would have thought. It is even possible I have completed one or two myself for a liveaboard, but don't remember doing so as I am still (thankfully) able to honestly answer NO on all of the questions. Need and/or justification for the form in a non-training situation is a whole other can of worms, but I suspect those that require it for their activities are not doing so just on a whim.

Medical Statement for Training - what are we arguing about: I'll summarize that the discussion has been
- what is the standard?
- is that standard justifiable?
- is use of the form compliant with HIPAA, PHI, etc.?
- what should the standard or process be?

I have tried to stay away from those last three in my contributions to the conversation, as I am most interested in what the current PADI standard actually is. And I am not a doctor.
- My opinion (see earlier posts) is that the current written language is unambiguous.
- Some others feel it needs clarification.
- Also, @tridacna & @tursiops have stated that they have each received verbal assurance from PADI that the Medical Statement does not need to completed if there is an MD sign-off. That was NOT the response I received when I emailed PADI last week. I believe @tridacna plans to follow up again on the topic and contact the same person I emailed at PADI.

So my hope is this might sit on the back burner for bit, and see what @tridacna reports back on his next conversation.
I have also sent a note to PADI suggesting that this would be a good topic to include as an FAQ in one of the Quarterly Training Bulletins.

 

[tridacna]

We’ve discussed the PADI procedure. Anyone care to offer thoughts on how other agencies deal with this?

 

[dmaziuk]

Then I’m going to posit that the majority of divers in paradise (older vacation divers) are lying.

Not my experience: parts of Eden I've been to so far do the rational thing and only ask for a waiver. Ops who adopted that (modified) form for non-training purposes did that on their own without any prodding from WRSTC. As far as we know.

 

[Neilwood]

I’m always suspicious when an “older” (>50) diver fills in the RSTC with all no answers. But there’s nothing I can do nor want to do when that happens. All NOs below 50 is a rara avis these days. Statins rule.

On the last couple of liveaboards I have been on (which were split roughly 50/50 between under and over 50) I am quite sure that none of the over 50s had to answer yes to any of the questions or provide a doctors cert (the form was the RSTC one despite no training). They are all healthy (probably healthier than me tbh).

 

[kelemvor]

We’ve discussed the PADI procedure. Anyone care to offer thoughts on how other agencies deal with this?

Apparently NAUI leaves it to the instructor's discretion. When I took OW I had accidentally gotten an SSI form filled out and signed off on by two doctors (spine doc and general practitioner). When I turned it in for OW class, the instructor pointed out it was a form for the wrong shop and said he didn't require a medical waiver anyway. That was at one of the largest shops in my area. Definitely the largest NAUI shop in the general vicinity of NAUI HQ.

 

[tridacna]

On the last couple of liveaboards I have been on (which were split roughly 50/50 between under and over 50) I am quite sure that none of the over 50s had to answer yes to any of the questions or provide a doctors cert (the form was the RSTC one despite no training). They are all healthy (probably healthier than me tbh).

You sure? Nope, I thought not. remember...no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition.