PADI members expelled

[DCBC]

...I must have missed something. Up until now I thought we were talking about certifying the student based solely on his paper records.

Frankly, If I were faced with a diver who had 22k hours of bottom time and could clearly dive circles around me then I wouldn't be too worried about making some assumptions about his skills and knowledge either. The limitation, however, is that PADI doesn't provide me with an instrument to make exceptions to process if I get an exceptional student. Wookie probably did the right thing (it would be pretty embarrassing to tell a diver with that kind of experience that he needed to take the OW course) but strictly speaking your hands are tied unless PADI had a cross-certifying agreement with the Navy, which I'm pretty sure they don't.
R..

I feel confident in saying that it's up to the Instructor to assess the Student and not the Agency. The Instructor is aware of Agency requirements and if they are satisfied that a Student has the requisite level of skill and knowledge for a particular level of certification, that's all that's required. This of course is only my opinion. Certainly it is up to each individual Instructor to use his/her best judgment and common sense when making the decision to certify or not to. Any Navy Diver wishing an AOW feel free to contact me. I'm aware of the requirements of completing this program (having completed it as a Student and as an Instructor). It exceeds any civilian recreational or technical diving program that I'm aware of.

 

[rmh84]

I knew the one that got expelled here for sexual harassment of a female student about 5 years ago. I didn't know about the one 15 years ago that you mentioned, but that was before my time...

I won't go into names and details here - but the short story is - a certain shop north of Toronto was founded. Said instructor has some reputation for shady dealings, and eventually is expelled for harassment. The shop is sold to another man who HAPPENS to have the same first name as Mr. Shady, and unfortunately the occasional other shop employees that have sour grapes like to spread it around that the CURRENT owner is the molester. I know the current owner well, and unless being a genuinely nice person is a crime... well, you get the drift.

 

[Diver0001]

I feel confident in saying that it's up to the Instructor to assess the Student and not the Agency.

I think we're in complete agreement about this, but we're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about who is in a position to declare the skills adequate but I'm talking about who is authorized to deviate from prescribed process.

While we agree that the instructor is the one who is best positioned to judge if someone can dive or not, they are not (at least in the PADI system) authorized to deviate from prescribed process.

So you're saying "the instructor" and I'm saying "the agency" but it's because we're not talking about the same thing.

R..

 

[Nick A]

I think we're in complete agreement about this, but we're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about who is in a position to declare the skills adequate but I'm talking about who is authorized to deviate from prescribed process.

While we agree that the instructor is the one who is best positioned to judge if someone can dive or not, they are not (at least in the PADI system) authorized to deviate from prescribed process.

So you're saying "the instructor" and I'm saying "the agency" but it's because we're not talking about the same thing.

R..

Its the instructors translation of the requirement. PADIs standards are spelled out quite clearly. So I'm saying its the instructor via the PADI standard.

 

[Diver0001]

Well, you're right but the process is is pretty well defined. You can interpret standards for skills but the process steps still need to be followdd. For example you can decide for yourself based on experience if someone has fully understood a particular concept from the theory but you can't decide that the student doesn't need to fill in the knowledge reviews.

See the difference?

R..

 

[DCBC]

...While we agree that the instructor is the one who is best positioned to judge if someone can dive or not, they are not (at least in the PADI system) authorized to deviate from prescribed process. So you're saying "the instructor" and I'm saying "the agency" but it's because we're not talking about the same thing.

All I can say is that in my opinion, an Instructor must ensure that the student possesses the requisite knowledge and experience required by the Agency before they can certify the Diver. Once the Instructor determines that the student meets the requirements, s/he may certify the student. No Agency certifies Divers (they do however issue a certification card when an Instructor authorizes and specifically requests a particular Diver to be certified).

There is a clear definition of authority and responsibility between the Agency and the Instructor. The Agency sets standards for the certification process and the Instructor interprets them. This becomes very clear in the event of Civil Action. Clearly, it is the Instructor who has the authority to certify a Diver or not (not the Agency). The Instructor is the only person who can assess the competence of a Diver. I'm not saying that the Agency can't withhold or revoke certification if they feel that the standards were not met. But in this case, I think that you would find that the evidence of diving competence is overwhelming. No certification Agency on the planet should have a problem with this.

As far as "the prescribed process" is concerned, I've already stated that I can't attest to PADI's current process. I'm aware that PADI restricts their instructors far more than many other training Agencies so this is a debatable point. It does however come down to common sense and I believe that most Agencies expect their Instructors to use it.

 

[SubMariner]

Like others have said PADI suspends, expells, and require retraining all the time. I know of a instructor that got himself in big trouble with PADI with having to many students on an open water dive. I guess his DM was a no show but still took the class out the ratio should have been 8/1 but was more like 12/1. There just so happened to be a PADI QA person at the site that seen what happened as the class came out of the water. The QA guy went up and talked to him asked where his assistant was and the instructor asked him, "what do you think you are the PADI police"? As a matter a fact...........
Haven't seen that instructor for a long time!

As it happens every PADI Pro is "the PADI police". If a Pro witnesses any violation of PADI Standards, unsafe diving situations, et al, and DOES NOT REPORT the incident to PADI HQ, they are considered to be in violation of PADI Standards and may be sanctioned by PADI HQ themselves.