partially a rant, re: guided dives and AOW

[simonk999]

So I recently went on a two-tank trip with an outfit on Oahu, and it makes me wonder about a few things.

One. I'm sure there are some good guides but the ones on this trip sure didn't seem like they really wanted to be there. I mean, they were helpful enough and went through all the appropriate motions, including looking out for the divers with less experience (i.e. venting someone's bc on ascent) but it was pretty apparant they were pretty tired of doing it.

Two. What does AOW really teach? Esp the "deep dive" one. One of my group was doing his checkout dive for this "specialty" and it consisted of doing a "put the shapes into a box" puzzle done on the surface, and at, in our case, 92 ft. Is that it? Other than possible minor narcosis (which I didn't feel I was suffering (but then, would I?)), what is this teaching? The diver in question seemed reasonably competent, but had the big knife strapped to his leg, which leads my thoughts in a certain direction.

Three. A learning experience for me, thanks to how guided dives run. The boat was relatively crowded, with three groups (5, 6, and 7, including their accompanying DMs; I was in the smallest). We all go down one after the other, and about 1/2 way through the dive, I find that I am not in my group anymore. Fortunately, the area was really easy to navigate, because I wasn't paying attention to that, relying on just following the guide, and made it back to the mooring line with no trouble. Above me, the rest of my group was already doing their safety stop (one of the group was an air hog). The DM asked if my air was ok, which it was, with air to spare, and that was the extent of that.

This set of dives felt really hurried, in comparison to my dives for the Earthwatch project on Jamaica that I recently posted about. Those dives were self-paced, i.e. in the boat with 4-500 psi, and were quite relaxed. The guided one really felt rushed. Like "everyone off the boat, everyone down the mooring line, everyone follow me, everyone ascend", and with a real buddy in Jamaica (albeit one without an octopus), the Hawaii guided dives seemed more like solo diving, especially if one lost track of the dm, as I did.

Well, those are my random rants and observations from my latest dives.

-Simon

 

[jbd]

I was just talking with ckharlan66 about the advanced class and the deep dive part of it while we were on our way home from diving.

Here's my take on the deep dive. The instructor has you do a puzzle or whatever on the surface and times you on completing the task at the surface ie our normal environment.

Next the instructor takes you to a depth which should probably be over 100' deep. The point is to get you to a depth which has a high probablity of producing some amount of narcosis and has you perform the task again and times your performance. The hoped for out come will be that you took longer to accomplish the task and had noticeable difficulty with the task. While you may not feel narced the test shows that the effects are there.

Also there should be more planning and gas management thinking going on. Also IMHO the class should include hanging an extra air tank at 15' for use during the safety stop.

The problem with these deep dive sections of the AOW course is that the agencies are qualifying anything over 60' as a deep dive and new divers just don't see the point in paying to do a dive to 65' or 70' and calling it a deep dive. Also too many instructors are not putting the effort into the class that it deserves. I feel qualified in saying that as it has happened to me twice.

 

[SubMariner]

Simon:

Unfortunately, it sounds like you were on a "cattle boat". Too many people!

Guided dives vary according to what the operator and the local regulations require. As you pointed out from your own experience, each time can be quite different. Unless you thoroughly intereview the dive operation prior to signing up with them, there's really no way to tell what you will get.

In any case, YOU are the one who is ultimately responsible for your safety & well being, NOT the dive guide. You ARE a certified diver!

As for the Adventures in Diving course, it is meant to be an experience program where one can sample different types of dives under the direction of an Instructor. This is what it entails:

5 Dives; Deep and Navigation are mandatory; the other three are ones you can pick yourself. The deep dive has the following requirements:

-MUST be done with an Instructor.
-MUST be deeper that 60' (jbd's statement that "Next the instructor takes you to a depth which should probably be over 100' deep. " is incorrect.)
- MUST incorporate certain skills and objectives that illustrate how differences pressure and depth affect divers and their perceptions. (IOW, physically and psychologically.)

If you want specifics, email me.

JBD:

"Also too many instructors are not putting the effort into the class that it deserves. I feel qualified in saying that as it has happened to me twice."

With all due respect, being on TWO such dives does NOT qualify you to make this remark, even if it was two different Instructors. That is too limited a sampling to be making that kind of generalization.

~SubMariner~

 

[ScubyDoo]

I just did my AOW dives this weekend at Lake Ouachita here in Arkansas. My five dives were "Boat, Navigation, Search & Recovery, Deep, and Night.

On our deep dive we went to just over 70'. We did not perform a task on the surface and repeat at depth. I cant speak for the others in my class, but this dive was certainly the deepest I have ever been. I took the class primarily because as an OW diver Im only certified to 60'. When I dive wrecks this summer in the gulf I want to do it legitimately. I personally think 70' was just right for my first deep dive. I certainly would not have wanted to go to 100'. This was a lake with about 20ft vis, and at 70' feet it was pretty darn dark, not to mention cold! Should I take the specialty in deep diving, I assume that is when we will have to perform a timed surface task and timed depth task?

One of the older men in my class tried to equalize too deep and wound up with a really bloody nose. No harm was done, but it sure wasnt pretty!!

I learned a lot in these dives. Technically Im now considered an Advanced OW diver, but the term doesnt really apply. Im not an advanced diver, I just have a little more training that I otherwise would not have. Thats the way I look at it anyway.

 

[divedude]

Originally posted by

One. I'm sure there are some good guides but the ones on this trip sure didn't seem like they really wanted to be there. I mean, they were helpful enough and went through all the appropriate motions, including looking out for the divers with less experience (i.e. venting someone's bc on ascent) but it was pretty apparant they were pretty tired of doing it.

Three. A learning experience for me, thanks to how guided dives run. The boat was relatively crowded, with three groups (5, 6, and 7, including their accompanying DMs

This set of dives felt really hurried,
The guided one really felt rushed. Like "everyone off the boat, everyone down the mooring line, everyone follow me, everyone ascend

-Simon [/B]

Just a couple of points
On your #1 Don't you have days at work that you realy don't want to be there? I know that some days the last thing I want to do is get the boat ready and head out on the water. 95% of the time I wouldn't give up what I do for anything but..... there are some days

#3 Cattle boats are a pain in the butt. I always check the boat at the dock and ask how many diver they take before I sign up for any trip.

Never let some one hurry you, YOU are the customer and you are the one paying and it's suppost to be "fun" I got in the face of one DM in the Upper Keys who told me I couldn't dive the 2nd dive because I took to long to come back from a dive. No time limit had been set for the dive and it was unguided and my son and I did 75 min. at 30-40' which is well within NDL. We did the second dive! We got flack from the owner when we got back for holding up his boat. I have never gone back to that business and don't recommend them at all.

The best advice: Check out the charter before you put down your money.

 

[jbd]

I should clarify that my comments were not statements of course standards. Rather what I was stating was my impression of what the course intent was. I think Submariners post brings out what the intent of the course is and what the standards are.

Due to circumstances I did the AOW course twice. In both courses I and the other students felt a bit short changed. Who knows, maybe we expected too much of the course. I was judging by the material presented in the book as to what to expect. I didn't get what I expected. I hear these kinds of comments from divers frequently which is part of my reasoning behind saying too many instructors don't put the effort into the courses that the course deserves. Just a handful of instrutors not putting in the effort to provide a good class is "too many" IMHO.

In defense of instructors in general I do know that there are Lots of good competent hardworking instructors out there. The diving community should be proud of them.

 

[simonk999]

Just a couple of quick responses:

I do appreciate dive guides, even overworked and underpaid ones that are a bit tired out on the day I dive with them. Without them, we'd all have to plan all the logistics of all our dives!

Regarding submariners comment that while guided, diving is still one's own responsibility -- absolutely, and therefore, I'm still alive after I merged with the other group and lost track of mine.

Here's a question: how many makes "cattle" in your mind?

-Simon

 

[divedude]

Originally posted by simonk999
Here's a question: how many makes "cattle" in your mind?

-Simon [/B]

Any time that you move and try to get ready, some other diver is bumping into you :grrr:

 

[CuriousMe]

Originally posted by divedude

Any time that you move and try to get ready, some other diver is bumping into you :grrr:

I don't mind the bumping into each other on the boat near as much as I mind folks crashing into me from above and nearly knocking me into reef (thankfully I was able to avoid it)....Folks who cut you off and don't notice that they're continually kicking you untill you grab their fin, so you can move away from them without loosing your mask...then they turn and look at you like you've infringed on their personal space.
Basically not being able to get away from other folks underwater who have absolutely no control of where they end up...I don't know if it's bouoncy <sp?> problems or that they forget that they've got to think in 3-D underwater.

Sorry, my 2 second rant is now over Needless to say, I always check how many folks will be on the boat/how many DM's with the Dive operator before hand now. Some lessons only need to be presented to you once before you learn them.

 

[Bigberg50]

I did my AOW with Dive Tech in GC last February and it was, "what a difference a day makes." On day one, the instructor appeared to care less. We didn't review much at all, did the dives including the deep dive, stamp the book, good-bye. On the second day, the instructor was quite excellent, really went over the material, took great care in teaching skills, etc.
So, it all comes down to which instructor one is assigned to.