Plus ratings and hydros'

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The difference in the two methods is that in the water jacket method the cylinder is immersed in the water jacket, when the cylinder is pressurized it expands and displaces an amount of water in the jacket equal to the cc's of cylinder expansion.
In the direct expansion method the cylinder is not in a water jacket. The expansion is measured by measuring the amount of water pumped into the cylinder to raise the pressure from zero to test pressure. Direct expansion is mostly used to test pressure vessels that are too large to be put in a water jacket such as large tractor trailer mounted cylinders.

I do not know why, if both methods measure cylinder expansion the direct expansion method not suitable for granting the plus rating.

Our point man on cylinders, Luis may have the answer.
 
The water jacket vs direct may be one reason they charge more. The other reason may be because not all cylinders have the ree number stamped on them. Further, the cylinders may not be listed in the CGA 5 Pamphlet which also has ree numbers. This leaves the hydro tech to calculate the ree number. They might be charging for their time to do this. Of course some say we do not do the plus unless it is supplied.
 
I'm still very surprised that nobody on this board knows or is willing to post the REE number for LP72s, especially PSTs, which are very common. Nobody seems to know a hydro facility that does, either, although some people are getting the + rating. Probably these hydro facilities are giving the + rating without knowing the REE number.

The service pressure for LP72s is 2250, 2475 with the + rating. However, they are fairly small tanks and I suspect at least as strong as current LP 3AA tanks that have the 2400 service rating + 10%. With that in mind, I've convinced my LDS to go as high as 2600 on mine. I'd be totally comfortable filling them to 3000 PSI all day. I would also bet that they'd pass hydro at 4000 PSI (current LP steel hydro pressure) rather than the 3750 they're tested at.
 
I just did 9 hydro test last Thursday, 4 of them were mine. Three of mine were steel 72 and per my calculations (a bit of a conservative REE calculated estimate) they all qualified for the + rating. And they were legally stamped with the + stamp.

It has been about 25 years since I operated a standard water jacket hydro test machine, but this is not rocket science. My LDS installed a hydro test machine a couple of years ago and I have help them with some technical advice and last Thursday I did a bunch of VIP and some hydros for them and got do mine for the right price.


SparticleBrain and James (fdog) are both partially correct. The test description from SparticleBrain is basically correct, but as mentioned in the CFR paragraph quoted by fdog, the water jacket method is the only acceptable method to perform the hydro test if the + rating is going to be added.

I am very familiar with the water jacket method and as far as I know it is the most common method for small cylinders. It is a very precise method and the initial equipment is probably much less expensive and easier to keep in calibration than the direct expansion method. I also have the impression that the direct expansion method may not be as precise, but I am not sure about that. I would think this is the reason the direct expansion method is not acceptable for the + stamping, but as I mentioned, I have never operated DOT approved direct expansion hydro test equipment. As an engineer I have performed similar hydro tests in a lab/ industrial environment and it was hard to keep any accuracy.

As Captain said, the direct expansion method is the only practical method for very large cylinders and in general it is probably much faster to perform a hydro test on any cylinder using this method. But, most small hydro facilities would probably not own the equipment for direct expansion hydro testing.


NorthWoodsDiver
The suggestion of adding your own + stamp next to the last hydro date is extremely irresponsible and bordering on ... (never mind... I don't want to sound insulting and I am kind of kidding). Now a day all authorized hydro facilities have licenses and are required to stamp them with the hydro date. It is very easy for an LDS to check if a + stamp is legitimate and I am aware of some that will and have done it. Granted, it will probably never be fully enforced, but falsifying federal code stamps is never a good idea, especially when it will not gain you much. If you read the code (CFR49) you will realize that an individual may own the tank, but you don't actually own the DOT stampings on a cylinder.


mattboy
The strength of the material of all 3AA cylinders is always the same by the code. As a matter of fact most use the same exact chrome-molybdenum steel alloy ASTM-4130. But material strength is only one of the three major variables in determining pressure cylinder allowable working pressure. The cylinder diameter and wall thickness are actually what determines the cylinder wall stress as the pressure is increased on a cylinder.

Hydro test pressure are design take the cylinder to the lower end of its yield strength. Due to manufacturing tolerances, I am sure may steel 72 could be tasted to 4000 psi and pass, but many would also fail. If you would like me to test your steel 72 to 4000 psi, I would be glad to...I have access to a hydro test facility. Granted, this would not be a DOT sanctioned test and no stamp could be associated with it. After the experiment it would be required to perform a conventional hydro test with the proper pass/ fail criteria since the tank would have experienced an unauthorized structural event.
 
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Awhile back I was reading an interesting cave diver death report on the IUCRR website about a guy diving sidemount 72s (the fact that this guy died has nothing to do with the tanks he used, if I recall -- just saying where I read the story). According to the accident report he routinely pumped his steel 72s to 6500psi. :shocked2:

Personally I don't have a problem filling LP cylinders to 3600 or more for short periods of time (the LP cylinders of today...I wouldn't fill a 72 that high). But 6500? No thanks.
 
NorthWoodsDiver
The suggestion of adding your own + stamp next to the last hydro date is extremely irresponsible and bordering on ... (never mind... I don't want to sound insulting and I am kind of kidding). Now a day all authorized hydro facilities have licenses and are required to stamp them with the hydro date. It is very easy for an LDS to check if a + stamp is legitimate and I am aware of some that will and have done it. Granted, it will probably never be fully enforced, but falsifying federal code stamps is never a good idea, especially when it will not gain you much. If you read the code (CFR49) you will realize that an individual may own the tank, but you don't actually own the DOT stampings on a cylinder.

It was just a joke, I never intended for anyone to take it serious. Besides that, I fill my tanks to 3000 psi which is outside the plus rating anyway and is a violation of the DOT stamping.

so I say- DO NOT OVER FILL YOUR SCUBA CYLINDERS OR TAMPER WITH THE STAMPS

Sorry if everyone thought I was serious.
 
It was just a joke, I never intended for anyone to take it serious. Besides that, I fill my tanks to 3000 psi which is outside the plus rating anyway and is a violation of the DOT stamping.

so I say- DO NOT OVER FILL YOUR SCUBA CYLINDERS OR TAMPER WITH THE STAMPS

Sorry if everyone thought I was serious.


Thanks for the clarification. I was hoping that was the case... it is just hard to tell sometimes when one is kidding.

Overfilling is a totally different subject that has been discussed to death.
Overfilling does not permanently deface the federal stamps.

I have been known to lightly overfill my steel 72 to about 2800 psi on a number of occasions. But, a + stamped 72 can technically and legally can experience almost that pressure when it is hot. I am just stretching the interpretation of the codes a bit, but I am very comfortable with the structural integrity of my cylinders.
 
Us Canucks have it easier.....if you check your LP tank collar you will find the DOT-2400+ rating as well as a TC-184 stamp, that "184" is the BAR rating for Transport Canada which equals to 2668.6 PSI -- so in short, we always get the "+" rating on the tanks regardless of the hydro facility as the + only applies to the DOT mark.
 
Luis, given that the diameter of the LP72 is smaller than current LP tanks, if the wall thickness were the same as say, a LP85, wouldn't the 72 theoretically be able to withstand higher PSI? Total pressure on the cylinder at a given PSI would be lower due to the smaller surface area of the cylinder, correct?
 

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