Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[DiverBuoy]

detroit diver once bubbled...
is lacking in depth and quality.

The PADI OW course isn't the target here ... instructors may fail to teach what is available. The material covers everything required to be a competent diver.
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detroit diver once bubbled...
If they truly wanted to present quality education, then the classes would be longer, the requirements for instructors would be far more stringent, and the skills required to pass the class would be far more comprehensive.

Length of class doesn't mean quality. Just like price doesn't mean quality. Requirements are stringent for instructors. The requirements are "cover everything in the course". Perhaps the problem is that instructors who fail to do this aren't caught and pummeled often enough. Perhaps PADI could put the quality assurance survey in the mail and require it be filled out in order for the student to receive their card. If more instructors found out what there students were being asked to regurgitate post instruction, they'd be all over their weaknesses. I mean what value is there in filling out an instructor comment card while the instructor stands there looking over your shoulder.
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detroit diver once bubbled...
Sorry, pretty books and video's don't cut it if the minimums are not where they should be. And you can't leave it up to the instructor or else you get the minimums, and no more.

Take this up with the recreational scuba training council. PADI does the best job of including everything they require - with elaboration, and illustration, and videos, and charts, and graphs, and books, and cds, and dvds, and on-line materials. As the Ragu commercial says "it's in there". If it's not taught I wholeheartedly disagree with your viewpoint - the instructor is the point of failure.

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detroit diver once bubbled...
But the rule here is "follow the pretty PADI book and if the student does everything we require, then he/she shall be passed as a competent diver". No, that's not a direct quote, but it should be.

If EVERYTHING covered in their literature is taught you'd always get a competent diver. Problem is instructors don't. Perhaps they spend too much time elaborating on something useless and fail to deliver course.
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detroit diver once bubbled...
I want to know why the skill requirements are not higher than they are for BOW other than to sell another class.

We've already told you - it's too much for the students. When they are done with Open Water they are beginners. If they want to move beyond that they must take more classes. If you feel differently take it up with the agency that sets the standards for all recreational training agencies - not PADI.

I fear that you have in fact not been exposed to enough PADI students (100s) in your lifetime to judge the results. Avoid comparing resort course divers. And the sensational stories you read here on scubaboard. I invite you (sincerely) to come down here to Southern California and dive off any boat in the channel islands with me. Off these boats students carry responsibility for putting into practice the things they were taught.

For all new divers it comes down to experience. They need time to develop their skills. This is true of every sport - save none. BOW lays the foundation - it's all there.

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detroit diver once bubbled...
You get novice divers bouncing off reefs & destroying the corals because they can't control themselves, and you get divers going easily to 80-100 feet because the water is so crystal clear. They don't even know they're narced
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Look-you've got a card that tells you so! Funny thing is, you don't feel like a solid diver because you haven't had the in- water time that it takes to get comfortable as one.
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Raise the bar. Shoot for excellence instead of mediocrity in both instructor and student. Put out quality divers instead of sheer numbers. Then charge what it costs to do this properly and pay the staff well. Then tell me about pretty pictures and video.

I just got back from back to back caribbean whirl-wind tour - (including BVI's, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, and Cozumel). I never once saw anything you're describing. Every boat was 100% PADI folks. I know because I introduced myself to every diver and I asked. I met over 40 people. For 5 of them, the first time we met it was their first tropical dive trip and only their 5th dive - if you include their OW checkout dives. And the vast majority of the 40 were beginning OW averaging between 10 and 20 dives. They all did just fine I never saw anything like your describing.

The card tells divers they are beginners and have only to get better from here.

PADI shoots for excellence. They have a great program. It's why they continue to stay on top. In a highly competitive price first society, they'd never survive motivated solely by money. They survive because they are excellent. They put out the best quality program for recreational diving. When you train a million divers a year - you can always find someone to bad mouth you. And it is a fact of life you'll have a few bad seeds in your midst.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Everyone,
The reason this thread was started wasn't to bash any agency. I know what is in the student book and what is in the instructor manuual.

The original purpose for the thread was to illustrate why I don't feel I can totaly rely on home study. Some things in the material need to be reinforced others need elaboration. Some things just aren't there.

Maybe the instructor manual says the instructor should remind students to stay together during descent but show me a class where it is required of the students or even asked of the students.

As for quality control, there is a difference between the intent of the standards and how they are actually used. I don't want to hear anymore about the useless questionars. I want a PADI training consultant to come to Gilboa on a busy weekend and see what we see and justify it. You don't even need to get in the water. Most students and even the instructors have their alternates and gauges just hanging. Streamlining is stressed in the book and is a requirement. They could weed out half of the lousy instructors by just standing on the dock and pulling cards from the ones who's students are getting in the water with equipment that isn't put together right. I'll bet there is even pictures in the book of divers with dangling alternates.

DB, I have seen what divers on resort boats look like. I have a collection of video. You know, when the resort sends a guy to take video and then sell you a copy. I use them in class because they show blatant examples of everything NOT to do.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...



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If EVERYTHING covered in their literature is taught you'd always get a competent diver. Problem is instructors don't. Perhaps they spend too much time elaborating on something useless and fail to deliver course.
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Except...they wouldn't know where to put their weights or why and they wouldn't know there is any kick other than a flutter.

I fear that you have in fact not been exposed to enough PADI students (100s) in your lifetime to judge the results. ...
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I'll bet he has. In one weekend at Gilboa or Haigh you can see hundreds of students and certified divers and dozens of instructors.

 

[jbd]

I think you have made a good case for not using home study for inland divers. Home study may in fact work well for those learning to dive in the ocean.

Where you and I teach we need to address or really stress certain diving techniques which may not be as important to ocean divers. We really can't afford to put this in a seperate class and have adequately trained local divers.

 

[sheck33]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
[
My point is Mike Ferrara hasn't indicated anything here so far that PADI doesn't ask it's instructors to cover in OW. I want to see some real meat here - an item that has to be covered in OW - HAS TO BE COVERED FOR BEGINNERS - yet was left out of Open Water materials and otherwise is not mentioned.

A very important point completely ignored in the PADI OW, AOW, rescue, DM class is AIRMANAGEMENT. This is an extremely ESSENTIAL thing when it comes to diving so dont tell me the poor PADI students are going to be 'overloaded'. AIR = LIFE so this topic belongs in OW.

 

[jbd]

I would find it hard to believe that air management wouldn't be covered through all those levels. I can see it being not as well stressed as it needs to be in an OW class but by the time you are at the DM level it should a solid part of a divers capabilities.

I know my daughters class had some general comments about frequent monitoring of the SPG and using the rule of thirds. Also there was class discussion about using more air the deeper you go. I think that these "rules" will serve most divers reasonably well.

Obviously they won't do for cave and wreck penetrations but IMHO they will work for most warm water dive sites

 

[Rick Murchison]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Do you strongly believe trim is a concept that beginners can grasp - with all the other task loading they are taking on. The VAST majority rent equipment. Then the next time they go to rent they can't remember either the formula to figure out their weight or the exact weight they were wearing during Open Water.

My students can always "remember" their weighting because it is written in their log books on their "weighting" page, where each piece of gear they use has its weight value recorded.

Addionally, the amount would be wrong anyway because the LDS has already changed the line-up for the "Fall Collection". Now the wetsuits are more buoyant, the BC are back inflate instead of balanced jacket style, the tanks went to steel instead of aluminum etc etc. "Aw this weight thing is so complicated - you know what? The need a class just on weight!" Hey guess what , is the reply, there is a class it's called Peak Performance Buoyancy.

We have our customers take their new gear into the on-site indoor pool to ensure it fits and they can adjust and record their weighting. This is part of the purchase, not the class.

This has nothing to do with the quality of delivery, or how well they did on the test. They just don't have enough repetition for retention. What they really need is practice - time to gain an appreciation for weighting and trim before they could even grasp there value.

We have long pool sessions - typically we complete the "drills" part of the pool session in an hour and a half, and the other hour and a half is "play" time, where we work on trim and buoyancy - in a fun way - games and somersaults and "who can stay in the lotus (horizontal, verticle, upside down... leader picks) position the longest without touching the bottom or breaking the surface" and such. It's real easy to spot our divers among the others at the springs when they go for their first dives.

IMO - I think this belongs in the PADI PPB or at least in their AOW class. I think the mechanics of diving aren't down pat enough for new divers to even begin to appreciate the value of trim.

I'm going to have to express the opinion - this is TOO much information for brand spankin new (PADI*) divers. I'm going to go with PADI on this one, not putting it into the OW course and manual is appropriate. And a good example of why breaking out the details on weighting into a PPB specialty is a solid move.thread was spun off PADI vs. Diverlink Forum - under "You be the judge"

The (PADI*) insert in the above quote is my addition, which, I suppose, makes it an accurate opinion. It certainly isn't my opinion on where buoyancy and trim should be taught, drilled and practiced - that should begin in earnest on Pool session 2.
(That said, I'm still for the kneeling drills during the students' first open water sessions, as their buoyancy skills haven't progressed to "walking & chewing gum at the same time" yet - but that's another discussion entirely)
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

Once upon a time, valve manipulation (underwater) was taught in basic OW. (Does anyone still require it?
I think it should be required.
Rick

 

[jbd]

point Rick. In my OW class in '94 the instrcutor turned off our air and then we breathed until the regulator quit providing air. At that point we gave the OOA signal and he turned it back on. Of course this means we weren't the ones to turn the air back on but it might be a good one to add now that I'm teaching.

 

[sheck33]

jbd once bubbled...
I would find it hard to believe that air management wouldn't be covered through all those levels. I can see it being not as well stressed as it needs to be in an OW class but by the time you are at the DM level it should a solid part of a divers capabilities.

I know my daughters class had some general comments about frequent monitoring of the SPG and using the rule of thirds. Also there was class discussion about using more air the deeper you go. I think that these "rules" will serve most divers reasonably well.

Obviously they won't do for cave and wreck penetrations but IMHO they will work for most warm water dive sites

It should be solid part of a divers capabilities by the time they reach DM? Agreed, but it isnt. And general comments about watching your SPG and the rule of thirds is not, by far, not enough. I have never heard instructors in ANY PADI class talk about turn-around pressures or SAC rates. Not in the OW, AOW, rescue OR DM class. They are being told 'be back at the boat with 500 or 700 or whatever PSI'. How can i do that unless i KNOW my SAC rate? And why be back at the boat with that? What is the point? If i get back at the boat with 100PSI? So what? As long as i had enough air during the dive to get my buddy and me back to the surface it doesnt matter what i have left when i surface. And if i do surface with 500 PSI, what about my buddy? Did i have enough air to get the both of us to the surface during any point in the dive? For divers that love pony tanks......do you KNOW how much time at what depth that pony gives you? Most divers dont. These general rules you mentioned above or inviting problems. I see it happen all the time, jee, i wish i was making this up