Pony mounting questions

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djhall

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I have read many/most of the threads regarding the pros and cons of using a bailout bottle, and have decided to experiment with one anyway :bonk:. The two main carrying options appear to be 1) under the left arm in a sling or 2) on the side of my main tank. I intend to try both mouning options to determine which one works best for me. However, I have two questions about back mounting the bottle alongside the main tank.

1) What are the relative pros and cons of mounting it valve up vs. valve down?

2) Does anyone have any experience using a mount which does not require any modifications to the main tank (ie. rental tanks). I am leaning toward trying the Aqua Explorers Ultimate Pony Bracket, but I would appreciate feedback about any of the possible options.

Thank you for any advice/experience you can contribute.


*** Why do I think I need a pony bottle explaination. ***

That said, I am sure I will also recieve a flood of, "why are you thinking about a pony bottle?" and, "you must be an idiot if you want to carry a pony bottle" responses. I will try to explain my reasons for trying a bailout bottle, and I would appreciate CONSTRUCTIVE feedback about other/better ways to accomplish my objectives. As for the idiot charge, well...maybe, maybe not. But, since I am the one who has to live or die with my decision, I have to go with what I feel is the best choice for me.

I consider myself an upwardly mobile "novice" diver (PADI AOW, occasional diver, just joined LDS' dive club to gain more experience, want to obtain nitrox, dry suit, rescue, etc.). I have recently aquired my own basic set of gear, with the notable exeption of tanks. The LDS supplies free rental tanks to club members, though we pay the regular fill fee ($4) for the ones we return empty. For a weekend of diving, we simply pick up a trunk full of tanks and use what we need. For non-local diving, I use the tanks supplied by the dive boat operator. All of my diving is strictly open-water, no-decompression, most 40 to 80 feet, some 80-100. I usually travel alone or with non-divers, so most dive boat dives are with strangers for buddies. Since I am new to the dive club, all local dives are with untested buddies as well. This makes me somewhat concerned about redundancy. When I was limited to 60 fsw or less, I was fairly confident of my ability to survive an OOA "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent." Now that I am sometimes pushing to 80-120 fsw, I am fairly confident I DON'T want to attempt an OOA CESA.

Many posts here recommend one or more of the following alternatives as preferable to a 19cf bailout bottle:

1) Experienced dive buddy
2) Single w/ Y or H Valve
3) Duals w/ Isolation Manifold
4) 30/40cf sling bottle
5) More/Better Training
6) No solution necessary

1) My diving and travel circumstances make an experienced and reliable dive buddy an iffy proposition. At best, it will be many dives before I completely trust someone to be there when I need them, realize I am in trouble, know what to do, and carry out a solution without contributing to the problem. Even then, would I never dive anywhere or anytime unless that person came too?
Would anyone really trust a stranger with this responsibility?

2) It does not make financial sense to me to spend $500 - $600 to purchase the absolute minimum of two personal tanks, plus pay inspection costs, when rental tanks are free (I pay filling either way), abundant, and provide adequate air for open water, no-decompression dives. Y or H valves on rental tanks is not an option.

3) If owning my own singles is not an option, owning my own doubles does not require further discussion. It does not make financial sense, and I don't require additional planned air for the kind of diving I do.

4) A 30/40cf sling bottle seems to make a lot of sense. However, I am rather concerned that I may not carry it with me on every single dive I ever make. A 30 or 40cf tank is rather large and heavy to lug around for something I never, ever, ever, intend to use. I can just hear the little voice saying, "Your buddy is a dive master, the rocks are kinda slippery, its a long way to haul the tank to the beach, and you're only diving to 60 feet anyway...."

5) More/better training may help prevent an OOA situation caused by foreseeable/avoidable entanglement, incompetence, failure to pay attention, etc. However, it does not make you immune to equipment failure, and even the most highly trained diver on earth is still human, falliable, and capable of making a mistake. Thus, more training does not seem to eliminate the usefullness of redundancy.

6) One COULD argue that open water, no-decompression dives under the recreational limit of 130 feet do not require redundancy, since "controlled emergency swimming ascents" are theoretically surviveable in the event an OOA emergency coincides with a buddy-system failure. Too many peope have died from OOA in far less water for me to accept this as my backup answer.

From what I have read of others' experiences, along with my own theoretical calculations, a 19cf bailout bottle, at the maximum recreational depth of 130 fsw, within no-decompression limits, should provide enough air for me to spend 30-60 seconds recovering, and then either 1) obtain assistance from my buddy, or 2) make a direct ascent at a rate of 30 to 60 ft/min, stop at 15-20 fsw, and safety stop for 3-5 minutes OR until the bottle runs out. It may not be elegant, but it gets me to the surface alive! It may not be ideal, but it would be practical and affordable, and it seems to meet my needs for my current level of diving. Of course, I won't know until I get out there with one and start testing it.

Hopefully, I am not beating a dead pony here. If so, blame it on my newness to the board.
 
When I use a pony it is a 13cf. With a ponytamer. And I can do a 5min. safety stop from 100fsw. And still have 500psi. on the boat.
And if I have to give it up to a buddy it comes off real easy. So I can give it to a buddy. Hope this helps you.
 
djhall once bubbled...
6) One COULD argue that open water, no-decompression dives under the recreational limit of 130 feet do not require redundancy, since "controlled emergency swimming ascents" are theoretically surviveable in the event an OOA emergency coincides with a buddy-system failure. Too many peope have died from OOA in far less water for me to accept this as my backup answer.
well thought out post dj... but I am not sure I agree with this statement in 6) "Too many peope have died from OOA..."

Is this really the case?

When evaluating any additional equipment one needs to realistically evaluate the perceived problems that one is attempting to solve. Also you need to realistically evaluate the potential problems introducing the new equipment may create.

I am not so sure that OOA is the primary cause of death in recreational diving... perhaps someone else could give us a more definitive answer on this.

Anyway, hopefully this won't be perceived as the first trickle of a ensuing *flood* :D

At least I didn't just answer, "Use the Ebay Mount!" :wink:
 
djhall once bubbled...
However, I have two questions about back mounting the bottle alongside the main tank.

1) What are the relative pros and cons of mounting it valve up vs. valve down?

Well; I moved my bottle to stage mount [under left arm] after getting my BP/Wings. The reason was because of the way the straps laid out, I could only mount it on my back with the valve up. And with the valve up; I could hardly reach the valve. I prefer to dive with the line charged and valve off, which means I need to be able to reach it, which means it needed to be upside down.

2) Does anyone have any experience using a mount which does not require any modifications to the main tank (ie. rental tanks). I am leaning toward trying the Aqua Explorers Ultimate Pony Bracket, but I would appreciate feedback about any of the possible options.

If you decide to go with a backmount; I strongly recommend you have a quick system; or you'll start to not bother with it on second dives after you change your tank out. I went through a couple different things of my own design; none of were easy to swap out tanks [it'd be an extra 5 minutes or so]. I finally found the Kohr - Q-Connect and I swore by it until I moved to stage mount.
 
...OOA is the primary cause of death in recreational diving...

Last I heard, getting hit by a boat was the #1 diver killer.

At any rate, if the bailout is hardmounted, turn the sucker valve down, as it is much easier to reach the valve in that position to unfoul or turn it on/off.
I use a 6cf "prayer bottle" for much of my diving, pressurize the reg & shut the valve off so it can't leak. My style of diving is no doubt way different than yours, so pick your bottle size accordingly.
I also have said bottle clipped off on my butt, not on the back.
 
1) What are the relative pros and cons of mounting it valve up vs. valve down?

Valve down is usually easier to reach, but makes the valve and hose more exposed to sit-down type damage. I'd suggest valve down. Are you planning on leaving the valve open during the dive or will you charge the system and shut the valve down?

2) Does anyone have any experience using a mount which does not require any modifications to the main tank (ie. rental tanks). I am leaning toward trying the Aqua Explorers Ultimate Pony Bracket, but I would appreciate feedback about any of the possible options.

I'm not familiar with that system, but there are a variety of easily swapped band-type mounts that work reasonably well for back-mounting supplemental tanks. Keep it very simple - all it has to do is work. I'm not a DIR diver, but you might take a look at Darth Irvine's 13cf Argon Mount. It's a proven setup and can be easily adapted to a breathing tank.

A 30/40cf sling bottle seems to make a lot of sense. However, I am rather concerned that I may not carry it with me on every single dive I ever make. A 30 or 40cf tank is rather large and heavy to lug around for something I never, ever, ever, intend to use. I can just hear the little voice saying, "Your buddy is a dive master, the rocks are kinda slippery, its a long way to haul the tank to the beach, and you're only diving to 60 feet anyway...."

Just a thought: the difference between a Luxfer SO19 and a Luxfer SO40 aren't all that great. Dry weight is 8.2lbs vs 15.3lbs; in saltwater and full of gas they're -1.38lbs vs -.70lbs. They cost about the same and the 40 makes a perfect deco/stage bottle if you ever head down that road. Just a plug...

Keep using your noggin. You'll make mistakes (I think back-mounting a pony is one of them, but it probably won't kill you) but your brain is the most important safety tool you've got.

Steven
 
with the valve up; I could hardly reach the valve. I prefer to dive with the line charged and valve off, which means I need to be able to reach it, which means it needed to be upside down.
Ease in reaching the valve was my primary consideration in favor of mounting the tank with the valve down. Are there any damage, risk, performance issues, or other problems caused by mounting it upside down?

For that matter, should it be carried with the valve open or charged and closed? Charged and closed seems to guard against the possibility of accidentally leaking air during a dive. My octopus does not seem prone to frequent leakage/free flow problems, and they are easily corrected when it does. Is this something I should be more concerned about? Valve open seems to make things simple... locate octopus, insert, purge, breathe. This is something I do frequently and am already comfortable with. Valve closed adds the requirement of locating the valve and opening it prior to purging and breathing. That might be a consideration, given that I am already going to be very stressed by the time I reach for my bailout regulator. What if I am slightly narked as well? And what if some OOA diver does manage to stay in control, swims over, locates my octopus (though actually my bailout reg), puts it in his mouth... and gets nothing! Sorry, buddy... the valve was closed. I honestly don't know.... I could use some help on this one.

I finally found the Kohr - Q-Connect and I swore by it until I moved to stage mount.
I had not seen this before, but it looks like it could work if I attached it to my BC's strap. If you mounted this on the BC's tank strap, how secure was the mounting, and did it get in the way when you were changing tanks? This looks similar to the Quick-Tec Mounting System in concept/function.

When I use a pony it is a 13cf. With a ponytamer. And I can do a 5min. safety stop from 100fsw. And still have 500psi. on the boat.
I AM glad to hear that. I hope my own test experiments go that well.... it would be a shame to have to ebay my pony right after I get it because it won't get me where I hoped it would. Unfortunately, the pony tamer requires hardware mounted on the main tank. That won't work for me with rentals.

I am not so sure that OOA is the primary cause of death in recreational diving...
At first glance, this statement seems to be kinda silly... of course it is... they drowned. But I think I see your point, Uncle Pug. Most SCUBA drowinings can be linked to poor training, panic, diving beyond skill & experience level, poor equipment maintenance, inattention, untrained or non-existent buddy, etc. And people have drowned when they weren't even OOA!

I think the concern behind your statement is that a pony may treat the symptom (OOA) and not the cause. Or, even worse, the added sense of security may make the diver MORE likely to become OOA in the first place. That may be true. I think airbags, crumple zones, and three-point seat belts are part of the reason people drive the way they do. If you want people to drive better, ban seat belts and airbags and mandate that every car have a big spike in the center of the steering wheel pointing right at the driver's chest. Voila... instant safe and defensive driver. I suppose no buddy, no pony, no octopus diving would make people better defensive divers as well. But I still use a seat belt and have an airbag (which I never plan to use). And I still dive with a buddy, an octopus, and probably a pony (which I also never plan to use). I think the best answer is a safety minded diver/driver and a backup safety equipped rig/car. Of course, that hasn't seemed to work too well for driving.... why should diving be any different???

Thanks for the responses guys. I am still interested in the practical how-to questions:

1) IF I back mount, then valve up or valve down?
2) Good/bad back mounts for rental main tank?
3) Carry with valve open or charged and closed?
 
Are you planning on leaving the valve open during the dive or will you charge the system and shut the valve down?
Ahh... haven't decided yet. Help is appreciated here.

I'm not familiar with that system, but there are a variety of easily swapped band-type mounts that work reasonably well for back-mounting supplemental tanks.
Aqua Explorer Ultimate Pony Bracket

I'm not a DIR diver, but you might take a look at Darth Irvine's 13cf Argon Mount. It's a proven setup and can be easily adapted to a breathing tank.
I haven't seen that before, but it looks a bit like the Zeagle mounts attached to cam bands/tank straps rather than twin BC tank straps. At least, from the picture.

Just a thought: the difference between a Luxfer SO19 and a Luxfer SO40 aren't all that great.
I have also heard this said about AL30s. My LDS is rather small so the display selection is rather limited. I've never actually seen a 30 or 40 cf tank outside of pictures. You've got me thinking of calling around to find some and driving into the city to take a look at them. It might be worth the time & effort.

Keep using your noggin. You'll make mistakes (I think back-mounting a pony is one of them, but it probably won't kill you)
Oh, I'm sure I'll make mistakes :rolleyes:. The question is, did I make the mistakes for the right reasons :D ? I don't know if I will end up sling mounting or back mounting. My LDS dive instructors swear by sling mounting if I feel I need the pony, and they will show me how to rig it and carry it as a sling. I just can't shake the feeling that it would be awkward and in the way. That is why I want to try carrying it both ways before settling on one or the other.
 

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