Pony thoughts (I know prob beaten to death)

[seaducer]

You're taking the comment out of context (or I am not explaining myself well). Of course we all are trusting our lives to the equipment as soon as we descend, no matter how many backups or buddies you do or do not have.

What I'm saying is, my buddy's gas in his mouth is currently working perfectly when I need it. There is no question it is the right gas. If he hands me the reg in his mouth, then we have 2 people now working on getting a working reg with the right gas into my mouth. The odds of something going wrong (assuming a well trained and practiced buddy) is about zero. But a pony bottle is supposed to be left on. Is the bottle still full? Is it the right gas? Will I successfully deploy it? Will it function properly? Is there enough gas for me to make my escape? Maybe the answer is, "yes" to all these questions. All I am saying is that I'd RATHER trust my well trained buddy with guaranteed correct gas from a reg that is working and a second brain to help me out.

If you think that trusting a working reg with the right gas from a helpful, well trained buddy is dumb, then I am perfectly alright with being in disagreement with you.

I think that you may be neglecting the "Human Element"... you know that quality that often bites us in the butt when we rely on someone else too much.

People are not robots, no matter how much training and experience one has, they can still make bonehead decisions or rookie mistakes from time to time.

I am not looking for a fight but the odds of something going wrong when you are trying to do an air share is never about zero.

To answer your questions:
Is the pony still full? Hardly a question that needs to be asked. You know whether it is full or not. For one thing you can add an SPG for as low as $40, at any rate, if you are not aware if a free flow or blown oring, maybe you are not paying enough attention to your surroundings.
On the flip side you may not know how much air your buddy has, see my robot comment.

Is it the right gas? Not a valid concern. Fill it with whatever you are breathing! Or fill it with air...either way it will get you up. If your bottom mix is not all you need, IE you are doing gas switches you aren't using pony bottles anyway. Rec nitrox or air, doesn't matter what you put in it. You aren't breathing it that long.

Will I successfully deploy it? If you are worried about grabbing a reg already on your person, that you set up, how can you think that going to somebody else will be easier? Faster? Safer?

Will it function properly? Treat it the same way you treat your primary gear. Will your octo function properly should your buddy grab your main? Same question same answer.

Is there enough gas for me to make my escape? Your dive plan should cover this.

Pony bottles are not the be all end all, it is one of many choices a diver can make. If your profile suggests you cannot reach the surface on whatever size pony you have, you need to plan another option.

I am not trying to disparage you or your choices or buddy diving, just making some points for consideration...YMMV

 

[seaducer]

Not quite the case. Once the hose is cut or the second stage is freeflowing the 1st stage reduction valve is basicly wide open trying to maintain IP but can't. The flow is then limited by the internal restrictions of the regulator so no matter if it is 10' or 100' the flow restriction will not change and since the 1 stage reduction valve is already wide open there is no way the flow rate (cubic feet per minute) can increase. Actually flow rate will be slightly less at 100' than at 10' because at 100' the differential pressure between tank pressure and ambient is smaller than it is at 10'. So time wise there would be no sugnificant difference in time between 10' and 100'.

I warned you my math is suspect!

Never-the-less, if you are nearing the end of your dive and have signicantly less than a full tank, time to empty will still be shorter.

 

[PM-Performance]

Another good point I just thought of while reading all these posts
BTW, great info guys. . . .

Anyway, What if you guys are at the end of a dive and something happens while you are a bit lower on air. Assuming you are both heavy breathers. Having two people trying to surface with 1K PSI and breathing real heavy trying to surface while practically hugging each other. I could see that gas getting sucked down quick too and possibly endangering two people.

On deploying I can tell you I got in a stressful situation once with a pony and forgot it was there as my backup. We used it for training and that was the first time diving with it really.
Anyway I got all mixed up with regs on my right side. So that is a very valid point in a stress situation that you do not have much practice with it.
I think if I do run one, I would likely run the reg on a necklace. Either that or put that reg very close to my face and my octo on a lower hip ring or something just so I know the redundant air is right there in my face.

 

[tridacna]

If you think that trusting a working reg with the right gas from a helpful, well trained buddy is dumb, then I am perfectly alright with being in disagreement with you.

No. You're twisting my words. You claimed that you shouldn't put blind trust in an inert piece of equipment. I'm not sure how you could dive at all if you followed that philosophy. All of our equipment is exactly that - inert. You are suggesting that a pony is somehow different. This has nothing to do with your buddy. You're trying to squiggle out of a dumb statement by bashing me. As far as your buddy is concerned, I assume that he is intelligent but you never know. I have yet to see the results of his IQ test. I do know however that my pony is as reliable as my primary rig. This has more to do with maintenance and care than intelligence.

 

[seaducer]

Another good point I just thought of while reading all these posts
BTW, great info guys. . . .

Anyway, What if you guys are at the end of a dive and something happens while you are a bit lower on air. Assuming you are both heavy breathers. Having two people trying to surface with 1K PSI and breathing real heavy trying to surface while practically hugging each other. I could see that gas getting sucked down quick too and possibly endangering two people.

On deploying I can tell you I got in a stressful situation once with a pony and forgot it was there as my backup. We used it for training and that was the first time diving with it really.
Anyway I got all mixed up with regs on my right side. So that is a very valid point in a stress situation that you do not have much practice with it.
I think if I do run one, I would likely run the reg on a necklace. Either that or put that reg very close to my face and my octo on a lower hip ring or something just so I know the redundant air is right there in my face.

I think that should be taken care of in the dive plan. If you are both heavy breathers, and you are not carrying redundant air, you need to plan to leave the bottom with enough air to get you both to the surface. For a Hoover and a Dyson that means leaving the bottom with more air than other divers might.

edit- scratch part of that. Even if you are carrying redundant air, plan on back gas to get you safely to the surface buddy-breathing. IMHO a pony works best when it is left out of the plan...

As for rigging your gear, yeah, having both regs together would be confusing under normal circumstances, and in an emergency could be fatal. Like any other piece of gear, it won't save you on it's own. You need to think about it, and practice with it to make it work to the fullest potential.

IMO as long as you leave your octo within the "triangle" so people know where to look for it, it doesn't matter where your pony reg is. A necklace is a good idea, strapping to the tank if slung isn't bad either. Just make sure you know which one is which when it counts...

 

[Rick Inman]

You claimed that you shouldn't put blind trust in an inert piece of equipment.

Of course we all are trusting our lives to the equipment as soon as we descend, no matter how many backups or buddies you do or do not have.

You're trying to squiggle out of a dumb statement by bashing me.

If you think that trusting a working reg with the right gas from a helpful, well trained buddy is dumb, then I am perfectly alright with being in disagreement with you.

I am saying that IT'S OKAY to disagree. No bashing at all. I give my thoughts, you give yours, that's how we learn. If fact, I would never call your statements "dumb" as you have mine.

As far as your buddy is concerned, I assume that he is intelligent but you never know.

My bottom line (please, I am saying MINE, not yours or anyone else's) is that I trust my regular well-trained buddies that I have practiced and trained with, with my life. And I trust them more than my gear, because I have had more gear failures than failures from these guys (and, yes, I do maintain my gear).

Call my statements dumb or twisting or whatever, I am giving you MY experience (not yours).

If I am with an insta-buddy or one a casual one, or am diving doubles, I dive solo.

 

[ClayJar]

If you're running out of gas at 30' then you have other issues... If you're a lot deeper, have fun running out of gas twice...

I do not mean to sound argumentative, but the "running out of gas twice" thing has always puzzled me.

Take the case of two divers, Thomas and Patrick, who happened to be identical twins. Tom dives with just a single AL80, but Pat adds a "too-small" pony to his kit. Other than that, they are indeed pretty much identical all the way from their air consumption to the dives they choose to the problems they inevitably encounter, being somewhat foolish divers.

One day, Tom and Pat are out diving. They're on the same site, but they're not exactly close. In fact, I'd guess that they probably couldn't quite see each other as, right at the same moment, they each found that their air supply had failed. (It doesn't really matter why. Perhaps there were reg-eating sharks or something, or maybe they just didn't watch their SPGs.)

So, here we have two divers, both with no air and neither with a buddy in sight. Needless to say, Tom immediately starts a CESA. As Tom's starting toward the surface, Pat grabs his pony reg as he starts his ascent. He breathes from it as he heads to the surface, trying not to go *too* fast. As he continues his ascent, he tries to take another breath and finds that his pony was indeed too small. With no more air, Pat makes a CESA from there.

Now, obviously, Pat's pony was not large enough to get him to the surface. Maybe he was relaxed enough to make it to a safety stop, or perhaps he only made it up to half his maximum depth. Still, regardless of how long Pat's pony lasted, who would be better off: Tom (who had to do a CESA all the way) or Pat (who managed to at least extend his ascent time somewhat)?

If you're going to exhaust your back gas at depth, having *any* gas to use to slow your ascent is necessarily better than having *no* gas. The only way I see that you could consider it a bad idea would be if you believe that perceived safety *necessarily* breeds complacency, in which case *any* redundancy must be considered counterproductive.

On deploying I can tell you I got in a stressful situation once with a pony and forgot it was there as my backup. We used it for training and that was the first time diving with it really.
Anyway I got all mixed up with regs on my right side. So that is a very valid point in a stress situation that you do not have much practice with it.

That seems to be a great reason to dive with a slung pony with the pony's second stage bungeed to the pony. My pony is completely self-contained. There are two clips to attach it to my D-rings, with nothing else connected to me. Not only does this configuration make the pony quite manageable on "land" and underwater, but it also means that the pony reg is always right there in front of me (and it cannot be mistaken for anything else).

(Being able to use the one pony with any gear is quite nice, too. I can dive it with a jacket BC. I can dive it with my own tanks on my BP/W. I can dive it with others' tanks on a boat trip.)

My bottom line is that I trust my regular well-trained buddies that I have practiced and trained with, with my life. And I trust them more than my gear, because I have had more gear failures than failures from these guys.

I certainly understand a diver trusting his regular (well-trained and practiced-with) buddies with his life. I have *one* buddy that I would place in that category. Obviously, I'm not saying that nobody I dive with is skilled and capable, but I am not able to trust someone implicitly unless I have considerable experience backing that up. Even with my one implicitly-trusted buddy, I dive a pony. It's just part of my who I am that I want to do what I can to solve my own problems if at all possible, but I am grateful for assistance if I need it. (This isn't to say anyone else is better or worse. It's just who I am.)

I also dive quite a bit with brand new divers (such as on our checkout trips). If I were to suffer an equipment failure, I could certainly go to them to share their air (I am confident in their ability to share). If I were sharing air with one of them, however, I would be *much* less able to assist with any additional problems that may arise in the group of buddy pairs. With my pony, I'm perfectly capable of handling a problem arising during the ascent. My pony has sufficient gas for that. My pony is basically part of what I consider my personal due diligence to the divers with whom I'm working.

Anyway, that's basically my person reason for diving a pony. I'm trying to always be available to assist a fellow diver while trying my best not to put another diver in the position in which they must assist me.

 

[Rainer]

I do not mean to sound argumentative, but the "running out of gas twice" thing has always puzzled me.

Take the case of two divers, Thomas and Patrick, who happened to be identical twins. Tom dives with just a single AL80, but Pat adds a "too-small" pony to his kit. Other than that, they are indeed pretty much identical all the way from their air consumption to the dives they choose to the problems they inevitably encounter, being somewhat foolish divers.

One day, Tom and Pat are out diving. They're on the same site, but they're not exactly close. In fact, I'd guess that they probably couldn't quite see each other as, right at the same moment, they each found that their air supply had failed. (It doesn't really matter why. Perhaps there were reg-eating sharks or something, or maybe they just didn't watch their SPGs.)

So, here we have two divers, both with no air and neither with a buddy in sight. Needless to say, Tom immediately starts a CESA. As Tom's starting toward the surface, Pat grabs his pony reg as he starts his ascent. He breathes from it as he heads to the surface, trying not to go *too* fast. As he continues his ascent, he tries to take another breath and finds that his pony was indeed too small. With no more air, Pat makes a CESA from there.

Now, obviously, Pat's pony was not large enough to get him to the surface. Maybe he was relaxed enough to make it to a safety stop, or perhaps he only made it up to half his maximum depth. Still, regardless of how long Pat's pony lasted, who would be better off: Tom (who had to do a CESA all the way) or Pat (who managed to at least extend his ascent time somewhat)?

If you're going to exhaust your back gas at depth, having *any* gas to use to slow your ascent is necessarily better than having *no* gas. The only way I see that you could consider it a bad idea would be if you believe that perceived safety *necessarily* breeds complacency, in which case *any* redundancy must be considered counterproductive.

Um, it's an argument against picking too small a pony, not an argument against redundancy. Was that really not clear? Or did you just pick and choose posts to quote in this thread without reading them all?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

On deploying I can tell you I got in a stressful situation once with a pony and forgot it was there as my backup. We used it for training and that was the first time diving with it really.
Anyway I got all mixed up with regs on my right side. So that is a very valid point in a stress situation that you do not have much practice with it.
I think if I do run one, I would likely run the reg on a necklace. Either that or put that reg very close to my face and my octo on a lower hip ring or something just so I know the redundant air is right there in my face.

I do NOT recommend that a diver use a standard octopus and a back mounted pony bottle. This configuration results in the diver having to manage 3 second stages and it is too easy to get them mixed up. Having 3 second stages provides near ZERO benefit and presents a lot of dangers due to the possibility of a mix up and also the increased possibility of freeflows.

If a problem happens and the diver has to share air, then he should be able to donate his primary and then use the pony to surface. There should theoretically always be enough air in each bottle to get the buddy team up.

I bend my own "rule" a little in that I use an AIR 2 which does provide an additional second stage, but it would be impossible for me to get it confused with either my primary or my pony bottle regulator.

 

[Jasonmh]

...
Take the case of two divers, Thomas and Patrick, who happened to be identical twins. Tom dives with just a single AL80, but Pat adds a "too-small" pony to his kit. Other than that, they are indeed pretty much identical all the way from their air consumption to the dives they choose to the problems they inevitably encounter, being somewhat foolish divers.

One day, Tom and Pat are out diving. They're on the same site, but they're not exactly close. In fact, I'd guess that they probably couldn't quite see each other as, right at the same moment, they each found that their air supply had failed. (It doesn't really matter why. Perhaps there were reg-eating sharks or something, or maybe they just didn't watch their SPGs.)

So, here we have two divers, both with no air and neither with a buddy in sight. Needless to say, Tom immediately starts a CESA. As Tom's starting toward the surface, Pat grabs his pony reg as he starts his ascent. He breathes from it as he heads to the surface, trying not to go *too* fast. As he continues his ascent, he tries to take another breath and finds that his pony was indeed too small. With no more air, Pat makes a CESA from there.

Now, obviously, Pat's pony was not large enough to get him to the surface. Maybe he was relaxed enough to make it to a safety stop, or perhaps he only made it up to half his maximum depth. Still, regardless of how long Pat's pony lasted, who would be better off: Tom (who had to do a CESA all the way) or Pat (who managed to at least extend his ascent time somewhat)?

If you're going to exhaust your back gas at depth, having *any* gas to use to slow your ascent is necessarily better than having *no* gas. The only way I see that you could consider it a bad idea would be if you believe that perceived safety *necessarily* breeds complacency, in which case *any* redundancy must be considered counterproductive.

...

Hi ClayJar. To me it is a difference in philosophy. I would say that it would be far better for Pat to take the small extra step of determining how much air he would need to get to the surface without having to do a CESA at all. He might get a benefit from starting his CESA from a shallower depth, but that is a maybe. Depending on his starting depth, it may be that he runs out at 60 ft, and has to rush to the surface without the benefit of a slow ascent rate and safety stop. In this senario, he not only might be able to help himself more, but might also be in a better position to help Tom if he is stuggling at the surface.
In this senario, Pat spent the money, and took the time to take the pony (etc), for what in my mind is at best a partial benefit. If I were going to do that, I would rather spend the small amount of time and small amount of extra money to get something that I knew was going to do the whole job.