press purge button when opening tank valve?

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HP seats are vulnerable whether the first stage is of the diaphragm design or of the piston design.

The valve seats inside your second stage are vulerable as well. Simply put, a gradual pressurization on both (actually three if you've got two second stages, or a second stage and an "octo") is better in terms of "wear and tear" than the instant-pressurization of a diver opening a valve quickly. This can be accomplished by continuously purging one second stage when opening the tank valve.

That's all there is to it - no matter what the design, gradual opening is "gentler" on valves and seats than quick opening.

Some Poseidon regulators and other "upstream" types may not be affected quite the same way as your standard downstream (Mares, Atomic, SP, Aqualung, Apeks, etc.) regulators - but rest assured, "gradual opening" is recommended by all regulator manufacturers.

A regulator that's not pressurized suddenly being filled with 3000 psi sorta "slams" the valve into it's seat - closing it quickly, and causing a little divot in the seat over many repetitions. Your valve and valve seat are going to get this way anyway - that's why they're replaced during service. However, gently pressurizing the system will tend to save wear and tear and prevent premature wear (which 50 dives probably is).

Still, though - "premature wear" is not the leading reason why you'd want to open your valve slowly, and while pressing the purge button - it serves double-duty to reduce heat within the first stage during pressurization, which is very small in size (about the size of the head of a pin) and very quick (lasting only a fraction of a second) but can be very hot. The first stage can handle it (and doesn't even warm to the touch in the amount of time this occurs) but... Well... You're adding pressurized oxygen (present even in air, but especially dangerous in high O2 mixes), fuel (any O-ring, molecule of compressor oil, or hydrocarbon is fuel and will burn), and heat... A bad scenario in terms of "boom." :D

What typically happens during combustion in this case is that the valve itself can explode - both the pressure relief (bolt or disk) and the valve knob will pop off, becoming high speed shrapnel. If there's a high (>40%) O2 percentage in the tank as well, the whole thing could easily become a bomb. You don't want this.

...Anyway, the point is that all of this could be avoided with the simple practice of opening valves slowly while purging. Oh yeah... And keep your hand wrapped AROUND the knob, instead of over the end of it - just in case. Count the missing fingers on older divers' hands if you don't believe me.

It astounds me that the industry teaches the concept of "O2 clean," and apparently stresses it to a degree that some shops won't fill tanks without this certification - but then fail to teach the simplest, safest methods for maintaining safety in the presence of pressurized gasses.

Most shops I've been to look at oxygen and hyperoxic mixes as "dangerous" or "things to take extra care around" - yet, it's not the oxygen that they need to be afraid of. It's a lot of gas - any gas - under a lot of pressure that they have to watch out for. To me, it's like they're playing in the street during rush hour - thinking that the cars around them are "dangerous" because they've got gasoline in them.

They're missing the point.

Purge. Open the valve slowly. Stay out of the street. :D
 
Boogie711:
OK - I don't know what you're doing, I would think that someone with "500+ dives in a year" would realize there is NO WAY you can be dumping 150 psi by keeping the purge button open for the two seconds it takes to open the valve. On an AL80 that's over 3cf of gas - come on.

I don't mind mulling over a valid reason why it's a bad idea - but that can't be one of them.

Sorry you misunderstood but that what I expected from you, I meant dumping into an intermediate stage of around 150 psi, psi is pressure not volume. Going from 3000 psi at the high pressure seat into 150 psi in the second stage hose, holding the purge in on the second stage relives little pressure on the HP seat, the 5% is diddly squat. So why do it? :wink:
 
nwdiver2:
Sorry you misunderstood but that what I expected from you, I meant dumping into an intermediate stage of around 150 psi, psi is pressure not volume. Going from 3000 psi at the high pressure seat into 150 psi in the second stage hose, holding the purge in on the second stage relives little pressure on the HP seat, the 5% is diddly squat. So why do it? :wink:

I couldn't sleep the other night and got to thinking about this. So at 2:00 am I got my old US Diver unbalanced piston out of the closet and took it apart. When you open the valve, slow or fast, the air rushes out of the tank, into the piston stem through the side holes, up into the "cylinder head" ( for loss of a better term) and pretty much slams the piston down...onto the high pressure seat. However, when you hold the purge buttom open and slooooowlly (say two seconds) let it close, it gently lets the piston return to the closed position instead of slamming it down. This would seem to be beneficial on the part of the little plastic seat. The same thing happens in a balanced piston too. (also took apart my MK20. It was a bad night and it needed servicing anyway)
 
nwdiver2:
Sorry you misunderstood but that what I expected from you, I meant dumping into an intermediate stage of around 150 psi, psi is pressure not volume. Going from 3000 psi at the high pressure seat into 150 psi in the second stage hose, holding the purge in on the second stage relives little pressure on the HP seat, the 5% is diddly squat. So why do it? :wink:


LOL - Please see Hank 49's post above. Let us know if you have any questions.

Have a nice day. :wink:
 
Hank49:
I couldn't sleep the other night and got to thinking about this. So at 2:00 am I got...

Uh-oh. Another Scubaboard junkie on our hands. :D

Hank49, I'm keeping you to your promise. I'm gonna dive Belize... Just don't know when yet... :D
 
I use the poseidon xstream reg and have noticed the second stage "free flows" for a second or so when you first turn on the bottle. I called poseidon to ask about this and was told "it does that to soften the first stage seating under the high pressure when the tank is first turned on". and that "the tank should always be cracked on as slow as possible untill the first and second stages are filled and pressurized". This is to prolong the life of the parts and prevent heating of high O2 mixtures.
So I guess the poseidon engineers think its a good idea to purge the second stage when turning on the reg...

thats straight from the geeks who build these things...
 
nwdiver2:
Sorry you misunderstood but that what I expected from you, I meant dumping into an intermediate stage of around 150 psi, psi is pressure not volume. Going from 3000 psi at the high pressure seat into 150 psi in the second stage hose, holding the purge in on the second stage relives little pressure on the HP seat, the 5% is diddly squat. So why do it? :wink:

I suspect it is a matter of controlling the momentum that is absorbed by the seat when the piston makes initial contact. If you open the the valve quickly without purging a 2nd, the piston will be able to pick up maximum velocity before making full contact with the seat. By opening the valve very slowly, the slow build up of pressure in the IP chamber will not accelerate the piston as much. By purging a 2nd, the piston will move towards the seat but will not make full contact with it until you stop the purge. both cases should result is a softer landing. I doubt if tank pressure is really a major variable in this effect. It's not so much a question of how quickly the HP chamber reaches tank pressure as how quickly the pressure on the LP side reaches the set IP.

I purge a 2nd and open the valve slowly. I don't use many HP seats.
 
awap:
I suspect it is a matter of controlling the momentum that is absorbed by the seat when the piston makes initial contact. If you open the the valve quickly without purging a 2nd, the piston will be able to pick up maximum velocity before making full contact with the seat. By opening the valve very slowly, the slow build up of pressure in the IP chamber will not accelerate the piston as much. By purging a 2nd, the piston will move towards the seat but will not make full contact with it until you stop the purge. both cases should result is a softer landing. I doubt if tank pressure is really a major variable in this effect. It's not so much a question of how quickly the HP chamber reaches tank pressure as how quickly the pressure on the LP side reaches the set IP.

I purge a 2nd and open the valve slowly. I don't use many HP seats.

Opening slowly...If my math is correct here I don't understand how that will help a lot. If a tank has 200 bar pressure, as the air comes into the reg which will close the piston at about 9 bar, the gas will expand the same rate as a bubble released at a depth of (200-9+1x10 meters per bar = 1910 meters, times 3.1 or so to get feet...or about a mile deep) and instantly popping to the surface. Given the tiny amount of air space inside the "cylinder head" of the reg....I mean, how slow can you possibly open a tank valve? I can see another sleepless night......
 
SeaJay:
Uh-oh. Another Scubaboard junkie on our hands. :D

Hank49, I'm keeping you to your promise. I'm gonna dive Belize... Just don't know when yet... :D

Let me know. We're out there.
 
Hank49:
Opening slowly...If my math is correct here I don't understand how that will help a lot. If a tank has 200 bar pressure, as the air comes into the reg which will close the piston at about 9 bar, the gas will expand the same rate as a bubble released at a depth of (200-9+1x10 meters per bar = 1910 meters, times 3.1 or so to get feet...or about a mile deep) and instantly popping to the surface. Given the tiny amount of air space inside the "cylinder head" of the reg....I mean, how slow can you possibly open a tank valve? I can see another sleepless night......

It's not the 200 bar that is the problem, its that first 9 bar (IP). "Opening slowly" applies to the initial cracking of the tank valve so the change of pressure in the 1st stage from ambient to 9 bar occurs slowly. Once your system has reached IP, the 1st stage should be locked up and the rate of the change of pressure as you go from 9 to 200 bar shouldn't matter much so crank away. My own tank valves still work pretty easily so it is not hard to open it just a little bit. Rental tanks are often another story so I just developed the habit of pressing a purge button when I go to turn on a tank valve. I then watch the SPG and when it starts to register I release the purge button on the hissing 2nd and crank the tank valve the rest of the way open.

I assume 9 bar is about 135 psi. I have not fully made this metric conversion but I'm inching my way towards it. :wink:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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