Primary and secondary malfunction on same dive. Should LDS be held responsible?

[Otter]

will not cause your BC to deflate unless the inflator was stuck in the open position...in which case you would be over-infating your BCD and hearing the over pressure valve venting the excess air.

If your question is "Can I change my regulator on the surface?". In theory, I guess you could. You obviously risk getting salt water into your first stage. I can't imagine a situation where you would want to do this. Once you had an equipment failure, its time to end the dive. Remember, most accidents are as a result of a series problems. Having a rookie diver with you....I would just wait for the tender to come pick me up.

Otter

 

[srobins]

RavenC once bubbled...

... because I have never tried to leave a BC inflated and break down the gear without deflating the BC.

You have never had to disconnect and reconnect the BC hose underwater? This is part of the confined water dives on the OW course...

 

[esmiami]

You snagged a 30 inch Grouper with your hands and are worried about losing the line?
You're alive and the fish is dead. Sounds like a perfect dive to me.

 

[Raven C]

esmiami once bubbled...
You snagged a 30 inch Grouper with your hands and are worried about losing the line?
You're alive and the fish is dead. Sounds like a perfect dive to me.

Yes, I did and I can hardly believe it. My grandfather just called me to talk about the fish I caught for him. He was tickled. I can hardly wait to get the pictures back. I will post them.

Srobins, that drill was not apart of my OW quals. There have been several things I have had to learn on my own because I didn't learn them in my OW class. Horizontal positioning for one instead of staying vertical is another. I questions why they teach you to fin pivot and kneel on the bottom when you shouldn't practice either. You should stay off the bottom if at all posible.

I really wouldn't want to change out the regs on the surface or underwater but I began to question all kinds of posibilities for future precautions. I just knew that I couldn't swim to the boat on the surface. But I have come to realize today that having the boat pick me up because I let go of the line to deal with the second reg malfunction on the same dive is not all that bad. I am glad that everyone came out safe and I learned how to handle the situation and now have even more possibilites to try in the unfortunate event that something like this happens to me or someone I am diving with in the future. I hope it never does. I have never been in a situation like that and I hope I never am again, but the fact that I was helps me learn more. And, it makes me realize that because I will learn from this and apply it to many different circumstances that I will be a better diver for it. I will just keep learning.

Mike F, as for the game collection. I spoke with someone this afternoon and DNR in SC says that the saltwater stamp I have on my fishing license (that I purchased at K-Mart) covers me with the grouper as long as I did not us fishing nets to catch it. He was not aware that it was against the law to catch a grouper with your hands. I really don't think he believed that I caught it that way but I don't care. I just wanted to know because of the question you raised. I really never thought that it would be against the law. Especially since they were spear fishing and I have a fishing license.

We did practice breathing off a free flowing reg in OW training but I had not had one breath in water like that. I will try your suggestion. I am getting Nitrox certified next month so I am sure that will be a part of the class.

I also know that just because I put my own personal gear together doesn't mean that I won't have a piece of equipment fail on me. But, I will know that the equipment is well taken care of. I will know how to properly maintain the equipment and I think I will have better gear performance that way.

Thanks to everyone who was willing to help me learn in this experience. R

 

[Iruka]

this has happened to me a number of times, but it hasn't really been a problem. With water being so much denser than air, I notice right away that what I'm trying to inhale is too "heavy" and stop inhaling before I get any water. You're right..you CAN breathe off the little stubby part of the regulator...but you'll probably have to hold the reg in place...not a good biting surface. Normally, using your octopus would be the better alternative. Another option, which is the one I've used actually....if the mouthpiece is loose enough to slip OFF, it's loose enough to slide back ON...(sometimes the tie wrap has broken or loosened over the years). Personally, in sliding the mouthpiece back on, I don't even worry about that tie wrap..might toss it out...the mouthpiece should stretch enough over the primary to hold it in place unless you're doing something like battling a 30# fish or ...oops...nevermind.
Also, unless you're in a place where the current's going to carry you off to the Philippines or whatever, I wouldn't worry too much about surfacing away from the boat..stay with your buddy, have a sausage or signalling device, and wait for the boat to get you, try to come up with an good excuse..."umm...I had this fish with me, and then a shark started chasing me, and it bit my fin and PULLED me 200 yard away..yeah, that's what happened!"

 

[Iruka]

or sorority, in your case, I guess. During Peace Corps training (prior to fisheries work in Fiji back in the '80s) I was told, essentially, "walk that way 1/2 mile and begin training." It was an odd system of training, to say the least, which I won't get into here. Anyhow, there were some ponds there. Given no further instructions, I went & stood motionless in one of the ponds with my hands in the water, fingers almost touching, and waited for a fish to swim over them...when one did, I "tossed" up on the beach...umm, oceans have beaches, ponds have banks...and...it was a 31# grouper! (no, more like a 1/4 lb tilapia if I remember right.)

 

[Raven C]

Iruka once bubbled...
this has happened to me a number of times, but it hasn't really been a problem. ... You're right..you CAN breathe off the little stubby part of the regulator...but you'll probably have to hold the reg in place...not a good biting surface. Normally, using your octopus would be the better alternative. ...something like battling a 30# fish or ...oops...nevermind.
Also, ...I wouldn't worry too much about surfacing away from the boat..stay with your buddy, have a sausage or signalling device, and wait for the boat to get you, try to come up with an good excuse..."umm...I had this fish with me, and then a shark started chasing me, and it bit my fin and PULLED me 200 yard away..yeah, that's what happened!"

I love your levity. I'll remember that if I ever get off the line again.

When I check the primary the ziptie was still on the mouthpiece. The part that the mouthpiece fits over was not there. Only a small stubby piece was sticking out. I do feel like I could have used that and held it into place but at the time I didn't realize that. Hind sight is great they say. But, now I have one more option to try. I just hope I never have to fall back on it. R

 

[Northeastwrecks]

This post is one of the single best posts I've seen in support of buying your own gear. Diving is simply not a cheap sport. Especially when it comes to life support gear. Half-a$$ing your life support leads to exactly the spot you in which you found yourself.

I would suggest that you and the dive shop are both at fault for the failure. They should have checked the gear before they rented it to you. You should have checked the gear for functionality, including the condition of the diaphragm and the housing.

One serious question. If your buddies were so newly certified, what the F*** were you doing agreeing to take them on a deep dive? If their certs were issued by PADI, they were qualified to go to 60 fsw. They had no business being on that first dive. Period. And, quite frankly, unless you've got an instructor card, you had no business agreeing to lead those divers below 60 fsw.

I've adopted a policy of refusing to supervise newbie divers unless they (1) sign a liability waiver in my favor; (2) show me a c-card and, depending on my mood, a dive log; and (3) pay for my time, in cash and in advance. If the boat asks, they must provide a free dive as make up. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to dive with the buddy I came with and let the newbie sit on the surface.

Even if I do agree to supervise, I won't violate standards, especially up here. That includes taking new divers beyond their limits. The wrecks will wait.

As for changing out regs, its certainly possible. I keep my second stages hand tight. Go to a working reg, shut down the damaged reg, swap and turn it back on. This may flood the first stage, but the regs I dive (primarily Apeks) will function until you surface and they can be rebuilt.

 

[Raven C]

I need to clear something up here.

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
This post is one of the single best posts I've seen in support of buying your own gear. Diving is simply not a cheap sport. Especially when it comes to life support gear. Half-a$$ing your life support leads to exactly the spot you in which you found yourself.

You are correct. I am not interested in half-a$$ anything that is why I am putting together the gear I am.

I would suggest that you and the dive shop are both at fault for the failure. They should have checked the gear before they rented it to you. You should have checked the gear for functionality, including the condition of the diaphragm and the housing.

I don't disagree. When I checked the gear; I checked to see if it worked when I connected it. That is all. The air came through just fine. I am planning to take an equipment training class (as I have tried to do since last year - it just hasn't been available in the area) even if I have to go out of the area to get the instruction. I may even purchase some used gear just to take it apart in order to learn.

One serious question. If your buddies were so newly certified, what the F*** were you doing agreeing to take them on a deep dive? If their certs were issued by PADI, they were qualified to go to 60 fsw. They had no business being on that first dive. Period. And, quite frankly, unless you've got an instructor card, you had no business agreeing to lead those divers below 60 fsw.

I simply paid to go on this charter with the dive shop. The group going had their instructor with them. He was the dive master trainer on board and he buddied them with me because there was an odd number of divers and we were the only three diving air. The dive master trainer and the shop were responsible for the waivers and c-cards. Not me. I found out on my own as to what they were trained on as it all unfolded. And, I didn't agree to lead them below their certified limits. As far as nav skills they should have had the basic skills in OW. I knew I could get back and I wasn't going to let someone who couldn't lead me anywhere.

I've dopted a policy of refusing to supervise newbie divers unless they (1) sign a liability waiver in my favor; (2) show me a c-card and, depending on my mood, a dive log; and (3) pay for my time, in cash and in advance. If the boat asks, they must provide a free dive as make up. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to dive with the buddy I came with and let the newbie sit on the surface.

Even if I do agree to supervise, I won't violate standards, especially up here. That includes taking new divers beyond their limits. [ /QUOTE].

I don't supervise any divers. I am not qualified. I have no problem helping new divers if I can. And, like I said before, I knew I could nav back and I wasn't going to let someone who couldn't lead me. I took a dive trip and the bottom of my original post says that my regular buddy was not with me. I have never taken a chartered dive trip without my regular buddy but this weekend that all changed. I am really glad that you always have your buddy to go with. I wonder how many out there take trips and dive without providing their own buddy and they have to buddy up with someone else. I never have until this weekend. I have been on trips where my buddy and I had someone added to our group (three buddies instead of two) but never have I been without my regular buddy on a trip. Surely there are people out there who have paid to take a dive trip and been buddied up with someone else. I learned from this experience though. I have never been in that situation and maybe in the future I can/will be a little picky about being buddied up. However, I would like to think that because I need more skills or to improve the skills I have would not prevent a more experienced dive from helping me learn by refusing to dive with me. How else would divers advance to higher levels if no one on the higher would ever dive with them and allow them to get the experience to advance to another level. This post was not meant for confrontation or debate of this nature so I will end with simply this. I do not claim to be better than I am and will not try to be better than anyone else only better than myself. Further more I learn through forming our Scuba Club that I didn't want to take on the responsibility of other divers I wanted to dive with other divers. I will help other divers if I can and I will learn from other divers what I can. I will offer encouragement to other divers.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

RavenC once bubbled...
You are correct. I am not interested in half-a$$ anything that is why I am putting together the gear I am.

Sorry. Renting junk is half-a$$ing of the first order.

I don't disagree. When I checked the gear; I checked to see if it worked when I connected it. That is all. The air came through just fine. I am planning to take an equipment training class (as I have tried to do since last year - it just hasn't been available in the area) even if I have to go out of the area to get the instruction. I may even purchase some used gear just to take it apart in order to learn.

That's asinine. There's more to checking out an unfamiliar reg than just hooking it up. Carefully inspect it for defects. Disassembling the second stage, for example, is usually pretty easy. So is checking for cracks on the housing.

I simply paid to go on this charter with the dive shop. The group going had their instructor with them. He was the dive master trainer on board and he buddied them with me because there was an odd number of divers and we were the only three diving air. The dive master trainer and the shop were responsible for the waivers and c-cards. Not me. I found out on my own as to what they were trained on as it all unfolded. And, I didn't agree to lead them below their certified limits. As far as nav skills they should have had the basic skills in OW. I knew I could get back and I wasn't going to let someone who couldn't lead me anywhere.

Do you do everything this so-called "dive master trainer" says. Its every diver's responsibility to make an independent determination of your buddies' abilities and call the dive if it cannot be done safely.

I won't even address the air diving comment, except to suggest that you get some training.

Face it. You were the de facto dive leader of this group. You allowed the "dive master trainer" to buddy you up. You had them follow you. That means that you were the leader.

I don't supervise any divers. I am not qualified.

.

I agree that you are not qualified. However, you were leading this dive. The other divers looked to you for guidance and assistance. You accepted the responsibility when the "dive master trainer" buddied you and you took the lead.

I am really glad that you always have your buddy to go with.

That's part of proper pre-dive planning. Who is going? What are their skills? What are their weaknesses. Do they have a compatible attitude and proper training. If the answers don't work for me, I don't dive.

I wonder how many out there take trips and dive without providing their own buddy and they have to buddy up with someone else. I never have until this weekend.

Count that as a learning experience. Now you know what happens when pre-dive planning breaks down.

However, I would like to think that because I need more skills or to improve the skills I have would not prevent a more experienced dive from helping me learn by refusing to dive with me. How else would divers advance to higher levels if no one on the higher would ever dive with them and allow them to get the experience to advance to another level.

It wouldn't prevent me from diving with you. For a price. After you signed the waiver and demonstrated some basic skills that were entirely lacking on the dive you described.

Divers advance by obtaining proper training and by mentoring. Which doesn't happen when some "dive master trainer" buddies you up on a boat with a couple of grab-a$$ing newbies.

This post was not meant for confrontation or debate of this nature so I will end with simply this. I do not claim to be better than I am and will not try to be better than anyone else only better than myself. Further more I learn through forming our Scuba Club that I didn't want to take on the responsibility of other divers I wanted to dive with other divers. I will help other divers if I can and I will learn from other divers what I can. I will offer encouragement to other divers.

No. This post was meant to be another novel, full of extraneous bull-pucky that makes me glad that I wasn't anywhere near that site. It was also supposed to be another feel good fest in the same vein as the immortal "I'm too stupid to know that I shouldn't dive solo in a new site with an untested drysuit before I take the class" thread posted by Snuggle a few weeks ago.

If you want a mutual hand hold, call a therapist. Otherwise, learn from this Charlie Foxtrot and stop trying to play divemaster. Otherwise, you'll be the one who gets to tell the sobbing wife, husband or parent that you just killed someone.