Product Review: BARE XCS2 "Tech Dry" Drysuit

[stuartv]

I hear you. I certainly don't have the experience you do regarding all the odd contortions you have to go through to get your job done. All I can say is that as long as I get the membrane suit positioned right, I don't notice any restriction in movement. I can either move my arm or leg in the way that I want or I can't. And with it positioned right, I have not found anything I can't do - even with my thick undergarments. OTOH, with my thick undergarments, some movements in my XCS2 require stretching the neoprene and pushing or pulling against that resistance is harder. Without the undies the XCS2 is equal to the other suit. Of course, that's for me. Maybe my XCS2 is just a tiny smidge too small for me. I guess that is a downside of a suit that is intended to fit snug. If it doesn't fit just right, then it's going to suck. Whereas the membrane suit has a lot more forgiveness in its fit just by design.

I had never even heard the suggestion that a tri-lam requires less weight than a crushed (or hyper-compressed) neoprene suit. Them being totally comparable was one of the touted benefits that influenced my decision to buy my XCS2. Actually, what I had heard was that the XCS2 would require less weight because its inherently better insulation would mean that I would need less thick undies and/or less air for insulation. And that a shell suit being a looser fit would hold more air. Nothing to do with mobility. But, after everything I read, I was expecting to need more weight with a shell suit than with the XCS2.

My experience has been that the XCS2 does not need less weight than the membrane suit, but neither does it need more. I think the XCS2 traps more air because its folds don't squeeze down as much as the membrane suit's folds, so it ends up being a wash on weighting. And the less air in the shell suit makes it easier (for me) to manage trim.

 

[Valery]

Stuartv was your suit made to measure?

 

[stuartv]

No. Both my suits are off-the-rack XL.

 

[Valery]

Well to me the biggest feature for a suit to be comfortable is to be able to custom made it to size.

When you move underwater none of you movement should be constrain by the suit or the undersuit (sometimes the suit is perfect fit but the undersuit are not, but not in your case)

Your problem is the fit, the suit in some places is to small for you.

My suit is cut to size and when I pick my undersuit I pay attention that they stretch enough and do not constrain any movement, it's a hole package.

When I say my suit is as comfy as my 3mm I realy mean it, I do not claim that Bare is the best out there, unlike some other equipment, I do not have tested all the DS in the market but given the excellent material they use, the custom fit and the overall quality and satisfaction I have, for me there is no need to look for something else.

 

[Deep South Divers]

I hear you. I certainly don't have the experience you do regarding all the odd contortions you have to go through to get your job done.

Yeah, and I think many more divers relate to your situation than mine... The whole drysuit-fit thing is a great argument for horizontal trim and the "skydiver" position. Believe me, whenever we can, we're in it too... But how do you cut down a piling or weld a seam without bracing yourself somehow?

I believe the propensity toward certain gear choices - and the reason why there's different opinions - is because of different needs.

After all, nobody'd ever take a Ferrari mud-bogging... Or a Jeep on a racetrack. And while the Jeep guy might be offended when the Ferrari guy called the Jeep "slow," it's all relative. Ferraris go ZERO mph in the mud.

...Of course, all of this flies in the face of my DIR roots - that gear should be consistent and standardized. But we standardize our gear within the team... Just not in accordance with the WKPP. In that way, my roots seem satisfied.

All I can say is that as long as I get the membrane suit positioned right, I don't notice any restriction in movement. I can either move my arm or leg in the way that I want or I can't. And with it positioned right, I have not found anything I can't do - even with my thick undergarments.

Same here. In prone, sport diving where I'm flat and the only possibly preventively-restricted movement is a valve drill reach, I find that doing the predive stretch & dump maneuver is sufficient to prevent most restriction from the non-stretch fabric of my SANTI e.lite and my e.motion. My DUI CLX450, FLX Extreme, and Northern Diver trilams were the same way... The Northern Diver being a special kind of PITA due to a non-extending torso and a back zip... Which provided not only the need for your buddy to get you out of the suit, but a restriction across the back when you brought your hands together for anything.

I had never even heard the suggestion that a tri-lam requires less weight than a crushed (or hyper-compressed) neoprene suit. Them being totally comparable was one of the touted benefits that influenced my decision to buy my XCS2. Actually, what I had heard was that the XCS2 would require less weight because its inherently better insulation would mean that I would need less thick undies and/or less air for insulation. And that a shell suit being a looser fit would hold more air. Nothing to do with mobility. But, after everything I read, I was expecting to need more weight with a shell suit than with the XCS2.

That's interesting... Opposite of what I was told, even by very knowlegable people in the industry... Whom I have dealt with every time I've bought or tested a drysuit. Some examples are Susan Long of DUI, Doug Mudry of Extreme Exposure (the former DUI fitment leader in the US and the current SANTI), and a shop in New Jersey who was the former SANTI exclusive importer. All of them have consistently praised trilaminates as "more flexible" and "less buoyant" - as well as lighter - than neoprenes. This is consistent with PADI's drysuit course where the two types are compared, and with specific mention in JJ's book, "The Fundamentals of Better Diving."

Susan Long appeared to be genuinely suprised when I showed her the photo of the CF200 fabric sinking in a glass of tapwater - while the CLX450 trilaminate fabric sample floated.

...And that's saying a lot - because Sue has always touted the CF200 crushed neoprene fabric as the most durable, most comfortable, and most flexible fabric they made. She was encouraging that we switch to that almost a decade ago... But we weren't interested in the additional buoyancy that we were told the fabric would create. It simply isn't true.

My experience has been that the XCS2 does not need less weight than the membrane suit, but neither does it need more.

Yeah, I agree with that statement, but it depends on how much air we put in the suit... And to get the joint movement we want, we can leave the air out of a crushed neoprene suit. With a non-stretch fabric, we have to add a little more air to the suit - and even then only get an adequate level of movement when we're prone. If we get out of horizontal trim so we can do our job, the air migrates upward and the suit squeezes below and mobility is lost.

This is why - for the most part - you don't see trilaminate drysuits in commercial diving, with divers who dive for a living every day. It has less to do with durability and more to do with movement.

In fact, for many years many commercial divers avoided drysuits altogether and used hot water suits... Basically, wetsuits with a hot water hose pumping hot water in. After all, if you were already connected to the surface with an umbilical that supplied air and communication, why not add a source of hot water?

The thing is... It made for a lot of expensive equipment topside, and a lot more tasks for the tenders. With more acceptance of scuba (no umbilical) in the industry today, the drysuit seems to be becoming the preference... And where it is, divers are avoiding "shell" or "bag" suits and opting for neoprene.

I think the XCS2 traps more air because its folds don't squeeze down as much as the membrane suit's folds, so it ends up being a wash on weighting. And the less air in the shell suit makes it easier (for me) to manage trim.

I gotcha. Well... Our experiences differ on that. I see your logic, and agree that I feel a much stronger squeeze out of a trilam at depth than a neoprene suit at depth when I don't add air to the suit. It can get downright painful and even leave "drysuit hickeys" if not compensated for.

I believe it to be a nonissue, though, as we always add air and equalize the suit regardless of it's fabric.

You wouldn't want to sell your XCS2, would you? If you're not using it anymore we could trade some cash and get another one of our divers in the favored drysuit this winter. It'd leave you some money for another trilam of your choice.

...Or maybe we could arrange a trade. We have a lot of trilams that we don't plan to use anymore.

 

[stuartv]

That's interesting... Opposite of what I was told, even by very knowlegable people in the industry...

The thing is you said "neoprene" and I specifically said "crushed or hyper-compressed neoprene".

I only bought my first drysuit a year and a half ago. At the point that I was researching them, it seems like crushed neo versus regular neo was a pretty clear distinction that most everyone discussing suits understood. Maybe you were doing your research further back in time where crushed neo was newer and there wasn't as much "common knowledge" about it, and you really were talking about regular neo, not crushed neo? And that is certainly not a dig at you. It's recognition that I am still a fairly new diver. So, my introduction to drysuits didn't come after years of experience and forming opinions during a time before crushed neo drysuits were readily available on the market.

When I first started to learn about drysuits, I learned right away that there are multi laminate (shell) suits, neoprene, crushed neoprene, and rubber. 4 distinct types, each with its own pros and cons. Along with that, what I read was that crushed neoprene (reportedly) had the best buoyancy characteristics, with shell suits and regular neoprene each being less good (for buoyancy), in different ways. I'm leaving rubber out of the list as it seems like hardly anybody uses those.

Reading a comparison of crushed neo and a tri-lam usually said that the looser fit of the shell suit equaled more air inside, so a bigger bubble that runs around more easily, so buoyancy and trim were both harder to control in the tri-lam than in a crushed neo suit. And that is the part that has really surprised me because now I have my own experience, which is that buoyancy and trim are easier (for me) in my shell suit than in my crushed neo suit.

Anyway, yes, I'll send you a PM.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Sweet! Yeah, that'd be great.

Good point about the time thing... That may be the case, although it was just a few months ago that Sue seemed surprised by the negatively buoyant CF200 material. I'd have thought that a big marketing point.

Maybe I'm just behind the times and thinking I've got something revolutionary that everyone else has as common knowledge... But it surprised me to find a suit made of neoprene with trilam buoyancy... Maybe even better. I suppose it depends on your individual experience when diving.

We have a couple of Viking rubber suits, which are specifically used when there's fuel or other hazardous chemicals in the water. We avoid using them - although they do clean up well, which is their point I suppose.

Standing by for your PM.

 

[manni-yunk]

EDIT: I just got off the phone with him... Darrell Hepplewhite. He's been with BARE since 2002, prior to the buyout by Huish Outdoors. He's currently the regional guy for the Northwest area of North America, but Huish Outdoors really considers him BARE's resident drysuit expert... And yes, he dives... A lot! He's an instructor and BARE's liaison to the US military, to include the Coast Guard and some of the Navy SEAL teams. For what it's worth, he says that the SEALS seem to be favoring MOVEMENT and WARMTH as their main suit characteristics, and thus says that they have favored a special version of the BARE XCS2, the BARE SB, and a BARE semi-dry for the same reasons that I have listed. Boy, did I talk to the right guy!

1. The XCS2 fabric begins life as 7mm neoprene foam, like what you see in wetsuits. It is mechanically compressed (rather than hyperbarically compressed like DUI does) and then heated for an extended period of time. It's published thickness is 1.8mm, although he admits to some variance in the thickness of the fabric. The name that BARE gives this product is "Diamond-Tuff" fabric, and is completely unique to BARE.

2. The BARE XCS2 is also unique in that, beginning in 2015, the entire suit is made without a single stitch - at least, until the zipper is installed. Until recently, this was not possible; but it has obvious advantages in sealing and long-term wear. The seams have a LIFETIME warranty... And if you've seen my unboxing videos of the XCS2, I noted their peculiar, high-quality, and rugged appearance - before I knew what "no-stitch technology" was, and that it was unique to BARE.

3. The BARE XCS2 isn't new this year - although the no-stitch technology ("NST") is. The XCS2 is actually a next-generation of the BARE XCD2, which used a different fabric on the INSIDE of the suit and was not as stretchy and compliant. The XCD2 also appears to be thicker, even though the suit looks the same as today's XCS2. I suspect that anyone in this thread claiming to have a "thick" XCS2 actually may be talking about an XCD2, not an XCS2... And yes, it does make a difference.
.

A few points of clarification. I agree that the XCD2 and XCS2 are great suits.

Ive had a XCD2 for 7 or 8 years and many of my crew have the same suit. All love it. One just bought an XCS2. They are not that different. Same thickness. Im sure there is some variance here but comparing his to mine - same exact.

My 2008 Bare XCD2 has NST (no stitch technology)- so...thats not new.

Lastly - the name of the compressed neo is NOT Diamond tuff - or, at least that is not my understanding. My understanding is that Diamond Tuff is the outer laminate and is a nylon based material. The Diamond tuff is on top off, or outside of the compressed Neo on these suits.

All that being said - in the NE - the Bare line of compressed Neo has been replacing DUI for years. I love my Bare XCD2 and I have probably 500+ dives on it and if it could be torn....it would have been by now. Sure - like any suit it has its share of nuances...but durability is top notch.

For weight - I own a Bare XCD2 as well as a Bare HDC (cordura tri-lam) - and in doubles or CCR, I use the same exact weight when I switch between suits with zero impact. Ive done hours of buoyancy testing with these suits and my weight requirements are the same with both.

Tri-lam dries faster, travels better, weighs less and packs smaller.

Compressed neo is easier to dive, more durable, more comfortable and I enjoy it more....when I know Im on a shady wreck with risk to the suit (jagged metal, small entry points, etc) - I grab the XCD2.

My friend with the XCS2 absolutely loves it.

XCS2 is a little more stretchy, but not a ton. Other than that, they are very, very similar.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Update:

About 70 dives on the XCS2. Yesterday was a miserable dive. At just 62 degrees, I was freezing. I was wearing only a BARE SB Base Layer undergarment, which is typically about right for this water temperature for me. It's like a Xerotherm - for those familiar - except a little thinner. Just a few days ago the water temp had changed from 72 to 68, and so I changed from my UnderArmour "tights"/FourthE base layer (depending on which was clean) to my slightly thicker BARE SB Base Layer (the gray one). I 'bout froze!

Wondering why... When, after all, I'd found the SB Base Layer to be nicely comfortable at least down to 60 by itself, I inspected the suit when doffing. Guess what... Crotch full of water. Like... Soaked. I'd noticed it during the dive - I thought - but wasn't sure.

No damage to the suit.

I removed the pee valve - the cool, new, low-profile one in my videos that I'd installed last week (not used yet) and inspected. Yep... Sure enough... Some sort of crusty had lodged itself in the valve, and it wasn't holding pressure. Every time I descended and got a tiny bit of negative pressure in the suit, the pee valve peed on me.

Fixed this morning.

...And while I had the suit apart, I checked the other valves. The suck test proved everything was good. Then I checked for tightness... Good. I was reminded that when I got the suit I had to tighten the inflator valve, as it was only partially screwed in... So just to be sure, I removed it and retightened it... Because, come to think of it, I'd been feeling a bit swampy in the chest area lately, but wrote it off as just sweat.

The inflator valve anti-friction ring was on the wrong side! OMG. No wonder I'd been a bit swampy there! Who did this?? I should have checked everything before it's first dive... Doh!

Meanwhile, I got the fabric samples from BARE yesterday. I thought I was getting a sample for every suit that BARE makes, but that wasn't right... I received only three samples: The black "hyper-compressed" neoprene of the XCS2, a sample of red "Diamond Tuff" fabric and a sample of blue "Diamond Tuff" fabric. Yes, manni-yunk, you are correct... The "Diamond Tuff" moniker refers to the fabric that is available in colors... It is essentially a layer over their hyper-compressed neoprene along the shoulders of the XCS2, except that the new layer of "Diamond Tuff" actually replaces the "hyper-compressed" neoprene top layer - it's not "in addition to."

For what it's worth - Darrell didn't say that the NST was new.. Only that it was different (he used the term "improved") recently. As best as I can tell, it was changed last year (2015). I don't know why or what the difference is. Perhaps it's only a difference in the manufacturing process. I have been able to find no additional info about it.

Anyway, the samples I received appear to be about 3 mm thick overall, which includes the outer layer of fabric of their "hyper-compressed" neoprene. The DUI CF200 fabric is exactly the same... Or at least too small of a difference to measure. The actual foam part (or what used to be foam) of both the BARE hyper-compressed neoprene and the DUI CF200 crushed neoprene is also exactly the same... Just under 2 mm. 1.8 mm - what Darrell claimed - looks to be exactly right.

The "Diamond Tuff" fabric - which adds a little thickness to the sample - is right at about 3 mm thickness.

The buoyancy test:

DUI CF200 "crushed neoprene" fabric sinks.
BARE "hyper-compressed" neoprene fabric floats.

BARE "Diamond Tuff" fabric also floats (seen here in red and blue - they did not sent a black sample).

On a hunch, I let them all sit overnight. In the morning I came back to this... All of them floating. Apparently the CF200 fabric had "grown bubbles" overnight and floated the sample:

Pushing all of them down and popping the bubbles gave me this:

...So yes, the CF200 fabric is actually negative in a glass of freshwater - just like my results before.

I am disappointed to find out that BARE's "hyper-compressed neoprene" is NOT negative. Both the "hyper-compressed" fabric and the "Diamond Tuff" fabric is slightly positive... About as positive as the DUI CLX450 fabric that I had a sample of.

Bottom line? The CF200 fabric is more negative, meaning it will inherently require less weight to sink. How much difference it makes is the next question... Because the BARE "hyper-compressed" fabric seems no more buoyant than trilaminates of similar durability... Yet still has the advantage of stretch.

All in all, had I known this when accepting BARE's offer to replace the suit, I'd have pressed for the refund... But am still very happy with the XCS2. I'd have been happier if someone hadn't misinstalled the anti-friction ring on my inflator - but it's fixed now and I'm sure today's dive will be much drier.

The pee valve issue could have happened on any suit, with any brand of valve. I'll take more care to rinse the pee valve better from here on.

 

[manni-yunk]

Meanwhile, I got the fabric samples from BARE yesterday. I thought I was getting a sample for every suit that BARE makes, but that wasn't right... I received only three samples: The black "hyper-compressed" neoprene of the XCS2, a sample of red "Diamond Tuff" fabric and a sample of blue "Diamond Tuff" fabric. Yes, manni-yunk, you are correct... The "Diamond Tuff" moniker refers to the fabric that is available in colors... It is essentially a layer over their hyper-compressed neoprene along the shoulders of the XCS2, except that the new layer of "Diamond Tuff" actually replaces the "hyper-compressed" neoprene top layer - it's not "in addition to."

I still disagree. The entire suit is laminated with Diamond tuff. Certain areas are colored differently, but the whole suit is made of Compressed Neo with a layer of Diamond Tuff on top. On my suit, which is 100% black - this is obvious. The color is for decoration only, not a material change.