Purchasing second hand equipment

[redacted]

Used gear is a great savings opportunity but you need to have a good idea about what your are doing (or some trusted help). Plan on having it serviced and factor that cost into the price/savings. I would not suggest you plan on keeping all of your first purchase through DM.

 

[Low]

“Bogus” Herman? I think that a bit of a stretch a more accurate statement would be a Gamble. Manufactures have this great department called Quality Control who's sole purpose is to insure that their product is sent to you according to their company’s standards and governmental standards. The Dude around the corner or on the net has no such responsibility. If you ‘trust’ anybody enough put your life in their hands then sure go ahead and put down your bets. Frankly those odds are too steep for me.


People are going to do what they want to do regardless of anyone’s input…. You do well with your purchases because you have experience, but does that tip the odds in your favor, maybe so. But just as you mentioned you discourage new divers from buying from certain places do to practical reasons. My reasoning sits a little closer to the head of the matter. I’ve slid my head across the concrete at 90MPH my helmet only seemed to have cosmetic damage that could have been painted over. After the accident it did not pass an integrity test. It’s the unknowns that you gamble with when buying used gear, with no experience on what to look for, it’s those unknowns that can get you killed. Try not to call warning signs Bogus when it’s not your life you’re gambling with.

 

[mike_s]

LOW, this is one of those often quoted but totally bogus comments often used to dissuade divers from buying used gear.

well he too is a new diver..... who's prob just repeating what he heard his LDS (which sells NEW dive gear ) say about buying used gear.


There's nothing wrong with used gear. I just see some folks that pay MSRP for it at a LDS... and want to sell it used for 10-20% less after it's sat unused for 2 years. ..... when at the same time you can buy it new from a Dive Shop that discounts for the same price or about that...

 

[Low]

well he too is a new diver..... who's prob just repeating what he heard his LDS (which sells NEW dive gear ) say about buying used gear.

Actually....I've never heard anyone say it before, those are my words. It's not that buying used is wrong it's simply a matter of using a little more discernment when doing so. Those who have been doing this for years know what to look for in quality used gear; you also know what questions to ask, to know if someone is telling the truth about that piece of equipment. I on the other hand am Clueless when it comes to diving gear, and could easily be taken advantage of because I don't know. That's just the nature of being Green. The shop I visit doesn't sale me anything... I go in to purchase something I have researched narrowed my selection down to a few and then asked for advice, I don't give them the opportunity to run the sales game on me because I do my homework. Apparently from the assumption, too many people fall for that tactic and get taken advantage of. Maybe a new topic needs to be started with 'What to look for in used gear'...

 

[herman]

“Bogus” Herman? I think that a bit of a stretch a more accurate statement would be a Gamble. Manufactures have this great department called Quality Control who's sole purpose is to insure that their product is sent to you according to their company’s standards and governmental standards. The Dude around the corner or on the net has no such responsibility. If you ‘trust’ anybody enough put your life in their hands then sure go ahead and put down your bets. Frankly those odds are too steep for me.


People are going to do what they want to do regardless of anyone’s input…. You do well with your purchases because you have experience, but does that tip the odds in your favor, maybe so. But just as you mentioned you discourage new divers from buying from certain places do to practical reasons. My reasoning sits a little closer to the head of the matter. I’ve slid my head across the concrete at 90MPH my helmet only seemed to have cosmetic damage that could have been painted over. After the accident it did not pass an integrity test. It’s the unknowns that you gamble with when buying used gear, with no experience on what to look for, it’s those unknowns that can get you killed. Try not to call warning signs Bogus when it’s not your life you’re gambling with.

If we were talking about simply buying it and just diving it, we would agree but what about after the first service. If your "new" reg and a used reg are both serviced by the same tech, yours for it's 2 or 3rd year in operation and the "used" one that was just purchased, what is the difference? None except you paid a lot more for your reg. Both have been used, both were sent in for service and both were serviced by the same tech. That tech should be looking for defects in both regs. There simply are no components inside a reg that routinely fail that are not part of an annual service kit. Sure one on occasion develops a crack in the body or other components but that is true of any reg, reguardless of if you buy it new or used. QC on new items has no real bearing on the outcome here, both regs would of had the same QC when it was made and no company who sells consumer products does a 100% QC.
Your MC helmet is a perfect example of why we all suggest you have the reg checked by a tech first. The damage will be caught by a good tech but on the other hand, your helment was fine until you abused it. If it had passed the integrity inspection would you have still used it? My guess is you would have. If so, then why do you feel it's somehow unsafe for a diver to buy a used but inspected reg? The whole used is unsafe and new is not is a bogus argument. There are plenty of regs that are 10, 20, 30 and even 50 years old that are still in safe reliable service.

 

[Rogersea]

I have bought a lot of used gear over the years, and the only time I was really satisfied was when I got to try the gear before we consumated the deal. I have used C/L and Ebay to purchase stuff, and it is a bit of a gamble. The only thing I really feel comfortable purchasing with C/L or Ebay are tanks(I service tanks and valves) and weights .....

My advice is if you want to purchase used, do it after you have more experience and have tried several different styles of gear. Also try to find someone who can no longer dive for what ever reason and has relatively new equipment.

Finally, if you are going to be taking DM from a LDS you should speak with the shop and see what kind of deal they will offer you on new gear... DM Candidates often get significant discounts on in stock items..

Cheers,
Roger

 

[Low]

Yes and tossing First Service into the discussion is adding another aspect to the topic that I believe is also important. Sure after the first dive your gear is absolutely considered used and until you take it in for its first service you expect it to work according to the manufacture’s specifications. The QC Departments at the manufacturing company I’ve worked at have been extremely meticulous at their task of insuring a quality product. No lives are at stake if their product failed on its first use… However I would expect those in the Diving industry to increase their meticulosity to a level that would dwarf other industries, simply because if their product fails, right out of the box, your life is at risk.

Now please don’t mistake my concern for a quality product with a thought of “DOOM… used is not safe”. That’s not the intention at all.

You mentioned the difference between my new gear and used gear serviced by the same tech… sure there is not much of a difference. But If you buy from me you don’t know the 3 W’s the Who’s, the What’s and the When’s, those fall back to the unknowns. On top of another fact that you don’t know anything about the person that serviced the gear last.

Speaking of service techs what do you look for from one service tech to another?
Do they go through some certification process?
Are they evaluated annually?
Do they take additional training courses to learn about new technology that hits the market daily?
Are there some quality measures that a service site insures are met before you walk out the door with your gear?

Because frankly we put the same trust in a manufacturing company that you put on a service tech. however, if something happens and fault is not your own and is found to be in your gear who is more prepared to handle that responsibility?

It was mentioned to factor in those additional costs when buying used. Is it possible that additional service cost can raise the cost of a used gear to that of a new gear?


I think I’ve asked enough questions for one post.

 

[fpgeek]

LOW, this is one of those often quoted but totally bogus comments often used to dissuade divers from buying used gear. Not only do I dive used gear but actually, I only trust used equipment. Here is the thing, equipment is new only once, on it's first dive and after that it is "used". Until I have had a piece of equipment on several dives, be it a new out of the box reg or a trusted reg that has just been serviced, it is not trusted until it has some bottom time on it. Now granted you know who used it last but really, what is the difference in a freshly serviced reg the you have been using and a freshly serviced reg from someone else. Nothing I can think of, for all practical purposes, new reg is simply a reg that has been serviced for the first time. I much prefer to know who the reg tech was than who dove it last. There is simply nothing to wear out in a reg other than the normally replaced parts during service. This is true of a high end modern reg or a 40 yo reg. Is it more likely that during service a reg from an unknown user it is found to have been abused, very possible but that is what a good service is for, the determine the internal condition of the equipment. My point here is that there is no valid safety argument to buying new vs used, assuming the used gear is serviced buy a good tech before diving.


That said, Ross, I do discourage new divers from buying off eBay and the like but not for safety reasons but rather for practical reasons. You can get some great deals but you can also get some very bad ones as well. To be successful on places like eBay you need to understand the gear, what models are easily serviced and what are not and what the service cost are going to be. Some regs are impossible to find parts for or can be worthless due to internal damage from a previous owner. There is no way to determine this via the web, you must have it in your hands to do so and it's sad to say but just because the listing says "great shape, just serviced and ready to dive" there is no guarantee that it actually is...which is why we all recommend having the reg at least checked by a good tech before diving it. A much better alternative is to check the local sales papers for equipment you can actually look at. If possible take someone experienced with dive equipment or better yet arrange for the seller to meet you at a dive shop of your choosing for the tech to give it the once over. You can get some great deals buying used and done correctly there are no safety reasons not to buy used. Just plan on spending another $75 to $175 servicing the gear.

I have to agree with Herman's assessment of the pseudo-risks and generalizations with used gear. My first setup in the mid-to-late 1970s was used gear, and it served me well until it was stolen about fifteen years later. That gear has been ice diving in Michigan to wreck diving in Florida, it served me well, and I'm not dead. Even with new gear, you still have to have it serviced, and one year of extra service won't make a difference IMHO.

 

[yodelhawk]

Not mentioned here:
Hook up with a local group of divers (hopefully there is one), see what they dive, ask questions, ask to borrow or trial. After a while you should be forming a greater idea of your needs.

That's what I did... Got lucky in that the former president of my scuba club anounced his retirement from diving on the first meeting I attended. He told the club that all his gear was for sale. Most of the other club members are well established divers, and non of them where are quick to call on him after the meeting as I was. SCORE!!!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Yes and tossing First Service into the discussion is adding another aspect to the topic that I believe is also important. Sure after the first dive your gear is absolutely considered used and until you take it in for its first service you expect it to work according to the manufacture’s specifications. The QC Departments at the manufacturing company I’ve worked at have been extremely meticulous at their task of insuring a quality product. No lives are at stake if their product failed on its first use… However I would expect those in the Diving industry to increase their meticulosity to a level that would dwarf other industries, simply because if their product fails, right out of the box, your life is at risk.

Now please don’t mistake my concern for a quality product with a thought of “DOOM… used is not safe”. That’s not the intention at all.

You mentioned the difference between my new gear and used gear serviced by the same tech… sure there is not much of a difference. But If you buy from me you don’t know the 3 W’s the Who’s, the What’s and the When’s, those fall back to the unknowns. On top of another fact that you don’t know anything about the person that serviced the gear last.

Speaking of service techs what do you look for from one service tech to another?
Do they go through some certification process?
Are they evaluated annually?
Do they take additional training courses to learn about new technology that hits the market daily?
Are there some quality measures that a service site insures are met before you walk out the door with your gear?

Because frankly we put the same trust in a manufacturing company that you put on a service tech. however, if something happens and fault is not your own and is found to be in your gear who is more prepared to handle that responsibility?

It was mentioned to factor in those additional costs when buying used. Is it possible that additional service cost can raise the cost of a used gear to that of a new gear?


I think I’ve asked enough questions for one post.

I look for thoroughness.
There is a process. Each mfg has their own and it varies.
They are not evaluated annually to my knowledge unless there is an issue. some companies may require a tech to take an update from time to time but most do not.
There are always updates but frankly the technology is not new. There are different features and doodads and gimmicks a mfg may put on but for the most part a reg is reg. A piston reg is a piston reg, a diaphragm is a diaphragm. Don't over complicate it is the issue that many look for.
Yes there are quality measures that each shop establishes. I like to test the regs and when possible have the diver test them. You are the final quality inspector. You should test breathe the reg and as soon as possible do a nice easy dive with it in the pool or shallow OW site.

You are ultimately responsible for your gear. Things wear out. O rings and seats can go without warning or prior notice. The responsibility for handling a problem that occurs if that happens is your ability to deal with it and get out of the water safe. Then you figure out who, if anyone, is to blame.

It is very possible for a full service on an out of warranty reg to increase the cost of a used one to new. Depending on the cost of the used one and how expensive the parts are, how much time is needed, and sadly how greedy the shop is or how pissed they are that you didn't buy new from them.

Used gear can be a great buy if you know what you are looking for. Before buying ask someone. I have no problem checking out a used reg for a potential customer. If all I have to do is open the second stage, check the IP and cracking pressures, look over the hose connections, etc it's a nominal charge. Because sometimes the regs don't need overhauled. Most regs do not need an annual rebuild. A good cleaning and adjustment will keep the majority of recreational regs good for another year.

Now if you are putting several hundred dives a year on they may need more frequent service. Or not taking care of them.