Quick Changeover with Air2 and Standard Octo

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Thanks DD, that's pretty much what I've been thinking, especially since we'll both be pretty much just diving the tropics in Asia. Only having 150 dives under my belt I take other experienced divers opinions fairly seriously, especially in situations I've never encountered, this includes those you refer to that think Air2's are dangerous. Personally, I don't have any fears or problems with removing my Air2 if I have to release air. I like the idea of having an Air2 and Pony for solo work or with a buddy. Since you and your kids have used them for a while, have you ever used the Air2 shoulder dump while breathing on the 2nd, I'm curious. The shoulder pull system seems more responsive than on the stock Aeris inflator that came with the BCD. I haven't tried in in water yet, but I get the feeling it will work just fine even with the reg in my mouth. Looks like it's time to head to the local dive shop pool and test everything out. Thanks for the feedback.
 
I recommend that you become familiar with the Air2.

I use mine often. Occasionally I drop the primary and switch to the Air2 and breathe off it for a while.

When you are comfortable with switching back and forward, then start using the Air2 during ascents, just to practice dumping air from the BCD. I always dump air from the BCD inflator hose. Take the Air2 out of the mouth, hold it vertical, purge some air from the BCD, then replace it in the mouth. If you practice it a few times and do it once or twice each dive trip, it'll become second nature. If you ever need to help someone who is out of air, being very familiar with the Air2 could be a lifesaver.

I guess I'm old school but I never like using dump-valves. Especially the ones tucked away at the back. In an emergency, scrabbling around to find it is not a comforting feeling. One the other hand, you always know exactly where the Air2 is; either on the chest or in the mouth. Also, the BCD dump valve on the Air2, which is on the end of the flexible hose, is the only way of getting the dump valve above the air pocket in the BCD that can be done with your body in almost any orientation - except upside down.

But, don't think of your Air2 as a backup when solo diving. If your primary is not working, there is a high probability that the Air2 is not working too. Either switch to pony (also needs practicing often) or swim upwards and pray to your preferred god...


www.peterwalker.com
 
I concur with your anxieties about this. I dove an Air2 for years, but with a Scubapro Classic (also without a rt shoulder dump). With more knowledge and experience, I arrived at the same conclusion you are reaching.

Quite simply, if it ain't a money concern, get the configuration you want. If you like the Air2 for whatever reason (and there are lots of folks who will try to make you want a separate octo), then given the scenarios you have outlined (not to mention diving with your newbie diver wife), get the BCD config that allows you to have both an Air2 and a right shoulder dump.

I don't use my Air2 any more. But I don't disagree with you.

If you are committed to an integrated emergency second, consider the Aqualung models. They're balanced seconds (and need the extra maintenance attention over a downstream valve octo), but also, they have a much longer hose and a joint that allows you to grab it and dump without taking the regulator from your mouth.

Just a thought.
 
Rsinsger, funny you should suggest a different BCD with RSD. I just spent the day looking at other travel models since I can still return the Aeris EX Lite's. Got my eye on a couple Cressi Air Travels that weigh exactly the same and pack down for travel. They have 3 dumps, one of each shoulder and one lower right. The one thing I liked about the EX Lites, over the Cressi and other "soft back" models, is the EX's rigid back plate which makes it a little easier to handle for tank installation, etc. Could be a non-issue though. The right shoulder dump sort of out weighs those kinds of concerns.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say "
need the extra maintenance attention over a downstream valve octo" ? Why more maintenance then a standard Octopus?
I've got 4 months before returning to the Philippines, so I've got some time to think this through. Found out the EX Lites are always on sale at $174 so I can even go back to them if I choose.

Money is a concern as I stretch the buck to outfit both of us. It's much easier to find used Air2's than most of the others. Aeris and Oceanic BCD's use non-standard size hoses, so I must find an Air2 (or other) that has the corrugated hose and dump all included as a complete unit that will thread onto my BCD. Maybe Cressi's hose is of the standard variety and will connect up to the Air2 or other model with no problems. I have been told that the Air2 is considered one of the best of the bunch for reliability and performance.

I think I'll slow down a little bit and think it all through from all the good feedback divers have left me, including yours. I'm still middle of the road on all this. The advantage of the separate Octo are many with virtually no cons other than a separate hose and finding a secure and familiar place to attach it so it's there when you need it. These problems are quite easy to overcome. Perhaps with practice, the Air2 will be the same.

No decision is ever set in stone.....least one sink to the bottom :)

Thanks
 
Rsinsger, funny you should suggest a different BCD with RSD. I just spent the day looking at other travel models since I can still return the Aeris EX Lite's. Got my eye on a couple Cressi Air Travels that weigh exactly the same and pack down for travel. They have 3 dumps, one of each shoulder and one lower right. The one thing I liked about the EX Lites, over the Cressi and other "soft back" models, is the EX's rigid back plate which makes it a little easier to handle for tank installation, etc. Could be a non-issue though. The right shoulder dump sort of out weighs those kinds of concerns.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say "
need the extra maintenance attention over a downstream valve octo" ? Why more maintenance then a standard Octopus?
I've got 4 months before returning to the Philippines, so I've got some time to think this through. Found out the EX Lites are always on sale at $174 so I can even go back to them if I choose.

Money is a concern as I stretch the buck to outfit both of us. It's much easier to find used Air2's than most of the others. Aeris and Oceanic BCD's use non-standard size hoses, so I must find an Air2 (or other) that has the corrugated hose and dump all included as a complete unit that will thread onto my BCD. Maybe Cressi's hose is of the standard variety and will connect up to the Air2 or other model with no problems. I have been told that the Air2 is considered one of the best of the bunch for reliability and performance.
... The advantage of the separate Octo are many with virtually no cons other than a separate hose and finding a secure and familiar place to attach it so it's there when you need it. These problems are quite easy to overcome.

Lol! Well, you've certainly raised quite a few competing issues here.:wink:
Cost, check. Rigid vs. soft back...well, for travel BCD's, some compromises might be in order. Hose diameter restrictions for the EX Lite...yes, that's going to limit your choices of integrated octos. That may be the biggest factor in your eventual selection if you want to stay with the EX Lite.
But if you want to stay with an integrated octo, don't worry about the reliability factor IF you regularly maintain your gear. The mainstream integrated seconds are solid, if somewhat stiff, emergency second stages (tho the Aqualung balanced integrated octo is a smooth beauty).
Right Shoulder Dump? If you're a photog, then until you go to a backplate and wings for horizontal stability, you need as many trim dumps as possible to get you situated exactly as you want. For positioning and trim the RSD helps (though frankly it's the lower dump I'm using more when I'm slightly head-down and needing a bigger adjust). Breath control during photog is the deal more than using a dump valve.
Now emergencies? You're on your octo and your wife is on your primary and you're ascending and needing to dump. This is the ONE time that a right shoulder dump might be of significance. Low on the likelihood scale, but high on the priority scale at that moment. An Aqualung is very smooth and has a hose long enough to both breathe from and pull to dump. But I don't know if it fits on the EX Lite. Sorry! Maintenance of an Aqualung integrated octo if you don't want an extra second stage is NOT a deciding factor. Why not?

Now, for your question: extra maintenance attention over a downstream valve octo.
The last Aqualung integrated balanced second that I serviced came from a liveaboard luxury boat. The BCD had been put away wet, and the crust of salt crystals and corrosion inside the regs was unbelieveable. The cracking effort was high, and on taking it apart, we quickly saw why: the poppet on the balanced second stage had to travel back and forth into a balance chamber which was crusted with salt from not having been soaked and allowed to dry (liveaboard=maybe not a lot of extra fresh water to soak regulators). The reason I mentioned that it was a luxury boat was because it wasn't a scuba liveaboard. Scuba was a part-time deal, and the equipment showed the lack of care.
A downstream valve is simple: orifice meets seat, and at the cost of a slightly higher cracking effort, it doesn't take much to open it. Salt or sand in the reg? Bang it against your knee and purge it and keep on diving. Sand or salt crystals inside a balanced second poppet assembly? Rare, yes, but if the pieces no longer move smoothly, you need to open it up.
That's what I meant about extra maintenance attention. It's a "better" design for ease of breathing. It works great! But if you neglect it, there are more places for it to go bad. That's why so many octos are simple downstream valves. But heck! If you're not a liveaboard throwing wet saltwater soaked regs in a locker somewhere until the next dive a week later, you'll be fine. Soak your gear in fresh water afterward and let it dry. End of problem.

As for your ultimate decision? I'd get the best emergency gear you and your newbie wife need (and it needn't be expensive). To me, that just means an octo that's separate (and any turreted first stage can help you route your hoses in a satisfactory and adjustable fashion). But that's why Aqualung designed their balanced second stage integrated octo: to be as smooth a breather as a primary reg. But it ain't cheap. Yes, AIR2 can be serviced in lots of places. But a standard (reliable, inexpensive) downstream extra second stage on a hose can be serviced in a lot more places and with lower cost. Once you accept that extra little piece of gear alongside your cameras, you can choose a BCD or backplate with a right shoulder dump and not worry about mating your integrated octo to a special size hose. Take whatever inflator comes with it and sell the AIR2 for $100 on EBay.
 
rsinger,

Thank you for such a thorough and thoughtful response. Much of it is what I've been thinking myself. One learns at lot from experienced divers on this site. I like the EX Lite's for many reasons, partly because they are a wing design and have a lower dump which I also use on my main rig, an Aeris Atmos LX. The LX is a hybrid design (mostly back inflation) which I like, but weighs some 9.5lbs, almost the weight of 2 EX Lites. EX Lite is a wing design and should do fine for photography and freedom of movement. I've also got my eye on the new AL Zuma's especially the Pro version they made, but the price then doubles, but it has a right shoulder dump, unlike many travel BCD's like the Aeris EX Lite. To be perfectly honest, I don't recall ever using the RSD on my Aeris Atmos LX because I always had my inflator hose close-by. It's only become an issue in the worst case scenario of OOA emergency while on an integrated air or in the event of dropping one's weight belt at depth. The guy I got the Air2 from said he had over 1,200 dives before he ever had to share air with a buddy who happened to have a 1st stage failure.

I checked into the Aqualung Air Source, and like the "grip" midway up the hose for smooth left shoulder dump while breathing on it's 2nd. My right hand may be holding my wife or an inexperienced panicked diver, so that's a nice feature. Whether it will fit the threaded top on an Aeris BCD, I don't know. It seems like this connection is more standard than the corrugated hose size to the lower unit. I know the Air2 unit I bought came off a Dive Right Transpac and fits perfectly onto the EX Lite with identical thread patterns. I suppose any shop that handles Aqualung Air Source can answer that question. I also noticed there are more Aqualung AirSource 2's for sale, than AS3's. Obviously people want the latest-greatest! Since you are familiar with AAS, in your opinion, is the AS2 as reliable as the new AS3? Often the differences between versions are primarily cosmetic, like with Air2 v. 3 & 4.

I learned something in school as a teacher for 20 years, we called it KISS (keep it simple stupid) especially for someone who doesn't understand right away. The more I wrestle with this, the more I'm leaning away from an integrated air 2nd. The Sherwood Maximus 1st stages are designed to have to their 2 primary LP outputs in the correct position for a standard separate Octo. Plus the 2nd has a nice long 4' hose for comfortable underarm routing. This has it's advantages as defined by the long hose group of thinkers. The truth is, once I let go of my desire to have an integrated air, the problems all go away, providing I come up with a reliable and consistent way to attach the Octo and make certain it's where it's supposed to be and available to my buddy (and me). There are many good approaches to this in the archives and some of the responses I've gotten here. One of the other reasons I'm leaning in that direction is because as a macro photographer, I work very close to the bottom, along with very close proximity to the corral. I'm very aware to leave everything as untouched as possible and make sure my Octo is not dragging in the muck (often I'm in inverted position, which like you, is why I like the rear lower dump). I noticed that the Air2 with it's heavier 2nd looks like it's going to want to hang down, which can be problematic in itself. Certainly easily fixable, I suppose, with a retrieving device, but the issue of my integrated air hanging in the way of the shoot and into the corral or muck goes away too when I use a standard Octo. Anyone else have a problem with their integrated air hanging low or using a retrieving device to keep it from doing so?

My gut feeling follows your logic; most likely I'll end up with a standard Octo bungeed to the right D ring (or my neck) and keep it KISS. Along with a pony when I solo, but than, might as well have it there for both of us if it's on hand. The savings on the integrated air will pay for the pony. The advantages of an integrated air appear far outweighed by the cons at the moment. Maybe later, when my newbie wife is much more confident with her diving skills, and we are familiar with safety protocol with each other, we can revisit the streamlined effect and convenience of an integrated air 2nd. I still very much like the idea, but the timing just doesn't seem right at the moment. Seems like that's the bottom line for many decisions we have to make in life. :)

Cheers and thanks for all the good advise.
 
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