tiki_bill
Contributor
The bungee loops keep the d-ring free and clear. Not so with the Razor.
You can always put loop bungees on a Razor.
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The bungee loops keep the d-ring free and clear. Not so with the Razor.
Oh, I am sure he knows about any flaw in the Razor and could also tell you reasons why it is there and necessary.know more that Bogaerts
Exactly!You can always put loop bungees on a Razor.
Should there be any more changes?Oh-and are there *any* changes in razor 2.1 vs razor 2 besides the pouch using a zipper instead of Velcro, that triglide, and the bungies coming out the inside rather than outside of the wing?
Well, you can reach Steve and HP via Facebook. I am told they explain their reasoning if you ask them and if you still find your advice valid afterwards I am sure they would listen to good advice themselves.Should there be more changes? I wouldn't say that. There are things I would change, but they'd never do it.
Easy to do yourself during setup. Would be another 10-20 increase in sales price however, so that is something you have to do for yourself.Adding a second set of low profile d rings a few inches down from the chest rings was a total g-dsend for rigging up with stage bottles on a boat.
I found out that you should not talk to some cave divers about bungee loops on the webbing.A loop of bungie holds the inflator hose better than the neoprene wrap.
This is a personal thing again.Splitting the webbing into spine and crotch components made the whole thing vastly easier to configure.
HP always reasons in interviews that 'trim fanatics' see that differently, weight can be placed very exactly and any setting is easy to reproduce later.Putting pouches on a piece of webbing instead of that ridiculous t weight thing...
They do not do any marketing at all I sometimes think.I just think they should be clearer about what they mean.
Not 'secure', I did not really mean that. 'Optically more pleasing', or something along those lines. Looks much better, offers additional flexibility and freedom, etc.. but is not much different from the original idea.You said in a post, I think, that the wing has a more secure attachment.
I do not think they advertise a 2.1 wing.They advertise a wing "2.1". It looks to me like the wing has not changed in the slightest.
Lack of information is inconvenient, yes.The lack of clarity is inconvenient.
Yes, I am sure I am paying them for this instead. I do not even get preferred shipping, still waiting for my triglide ;-)Well you're clearly a partisan-are you sure they're not paying you?
Never used additional stages from a boat and would always attach them from a line in the water.I get the opposition to more d rings. I share it; after a year of struggling to clip four tanks on for a boat entry, eventually I have in. If they have another way to get those tanks properly clipped for a boat entry well, I've asked a few times...
That's another thing I especially like about the Razor and Steve. He even thought about that!If I was rigging up in the water like Steve I might feel differently. It reminds me a bit of when I dive dir. It's true that there's nothing that couldn't be done in a properly configured dir rig. But if you weren't as tall as Jj, you'd probably make different design choices.
You will have to show me, I do not see it: Go Side Mount - Steve BogaertsThey do advertise it as the "bat 2.1 wing." Check their website.
As I said you can use anything you like there. The Razor is Steve's recommendation for doing it, but you do not have to use his way.As for wrap-around bungie ties--yeah, the concept bothered me too. Except with the razor you're already accepting that bungie is holding your wing on, so the boats pretty much sailed.
Any piece of webbing or cloth will be (minimally) buoyant until it is soaked through.Weight pouches don't add any positive buoyancy in salt, at least any that I've noticed. I still dive with an al80 and zero weight, unless I put on a 5mm then I add 3 lbs of lead.
It is, but it works, doesn't it?I'm sorry, but the t weight is ridiculous.
I think it's more around $75, still a very steep figure, I have to admit (but nobody would buy it separately anyway, that's just there for upgrading old Razor 1 systems and and also fits the legacy backplate the Razor 1 was using that is also found in many of the cheapest copies - I understand why they do it this way: someone owning a copy can easily build his own T-Weight too, can't he? No sales volume = high price). >>Edit: But as I said: not sold seperatly at all at the moment.It's what, like $100, literally for two pieces of webbing with holes in them?
No, but you are kidding yourself if you think that cost always equals material worth (buy any Halcyon product to experience that).Are you kidding me???
Totally understandable.I'm sure that hp is right about millimeter trim adjustments-if you're an instructor and you dive often enough to be able to calibrate that carefully. I dive once a week or so, and there's more buoyancy shift in my body from one dive, or frankly one time of day, to the next than adjusting weight an inch in one direction or another.
The neoprene wrapper around everything is meant to counter this.The t weight system isn't even that precise anyway since it has to be loose webbing-those weights get at least a quarter or half inch of play in every direction, so not having pouches doesn't buy you anything,
Impossible!It's also true that these are all mods you can do yourself. I did. If you're paying $700 for some webbing and a pound of steel, however, the harness shouldn't need a microsecond of refinement.
I am with you on the 'But...' and everything else you wrote.Don't get me wrong-I like my razor and I think it's the best of the sm systems out there. But...
Look here, mid page: Go Side Mount Shop. Razor Side Mount System with Redundant BAT Wing
No, the manual does not tell you how to attach your tanks. It also does not teach frog kick or which mask to buy.When you say you had no problems using it "exactly as described in the manual," the manual doesn't have any direction or instructions for getting tanks to stay level on someone who isn't very tall, or stages clipped on someone who isn't quite broad. Is it possible? Sure. But it's trial and error, and the razor harness doesn't really give you a leg-up beyond what you could do with some webbing and triglides yourself.
And I mean it! From my subjective standpoint its more than true.You say its "the ideal device to transport two cylinders..." Fine.
Why not.Not so ideal gearing up on a crowded boat, but
I don't do 4, you have to ask someone else there.anywayThat's two, what about four?
Ummm... Yes.You say its ideal for ladders and steps? Ummm... No.
Not for me, it isn't. I don't have broad shoulders, even with two tanks attached I fit through a normal door and only have to turn slightly for a narrow one. I also do not use boats with small openings at the end of the ladder very often. Perspective again.It's difficult to get through narrow spaces like say the place where the ladder meets the boat,
I actually prefer clipping to the font D-rings when climbing or sitting. They hang very close to the body, no way to get entangled (even protect my knees).and you have to reclip the tanks to the rear d rings getting out of the water or they'll bang into the ladder and get tangled.
Not an option for me most times either. But it's an option. If I needed it more often I would think about it more and make it work for me.As for gearing up in the water from an e-line --- that's reall only an option on a small number of dives at least for me.
Whatever... I personally do not see an issue either way, but others seem to do.The issue with bungee loops isn't cutting them free, it's that they can fail by abrasion.
I think this is some dangerous circular logic here.The razors bungies are better protected than the stealths, but you're still wearing gear held on by bungies so a few more won't kill you.
I do not say it is a huge issue.All webbing is not minimally buoyant until soaked through, at least not in any meaningful sense. Doesn't a spool of webbing sink in salt? If we were talking about padding or plastic or whatever I'd agree with you, but we're talking about a couple oxycheq weight pouches on webbing with three triglides.
Should it do more then? Is that your question?Does the t weight work?
What makes a 'good design' a good design?Yeah the pieces of webbing are definitely webbing... Is it a good design? Not really, honestly.
Yes, but I do not have many ideas myself that can improve those things that would not require including non standard custom made attachments and decrease overall security.It's very cumbersome to get on and off--you have to be screwing and unscrewing things, readjusting a complex configuration of webbing lengths, etc, to change weights. I got to superior performance with a couple of pouches on webbing.
Well you can either have the Razor at the price they could come up with, or you could not have it.As for the cost being what material is worth-I never said it was. I know iPads cost apple about $150 to build. But Steve Bogaerts is not Steve Jobs. Does the design or some perfect little addition justify what seems to be a 10x gross margin? I don't see that.