I dive OC and nothing prevents me from talking to my buddies. 
Request for comments on article - mixed OC / CCR teams
- Thread starter doctormike
- Start date
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The article is about twice as long/detailed as it needs to be and might scare off some people. I agree with splitting things up...
When I'm diving with OC buddies on rec dives I go over what to do if they're OOG(grab bailout reg budgie on the tanks) and switching my BOV if I were to become unconscious or unresponsive. Maybe a tidbit about sawtooth profiles and ascending to quick.
For tec I go over pretty much the same, add that I handoff the bailout bottle, using 1/2 then returning, whats in the tanks, etc.
There's no way I would go over a dil/o2 flush, pp02, etc with an OC diver.
The gist is, if something goes wrong, I don't want a panicked diver grabbing my loop and I want them to be able to bail me out if I cant.
When I'm diving with OC buddies on rec dives I go over what to do if they're OOG(grab bailout reg budgie on the tanks) and switching my BOV if I were to become unconscious or unresponsive. Maybe a tidbit about sawtooth profiles and ascending to quick.
For tec I go over pretty much the same, add that I handoff the bailout bottle, using 1/2 then returning, whats in the tanks, etc.
There's no way I would go over a dil/o2 flush, pp02, etc with an OC diver.
The gist is, if something goes wrong, I don't want a panicked diver grabbing my loop and I want them to be able to bail me out if I cant.
lermontov
Contributor
I hear you but i disagree. If you take this philosophy and apply it to developing (any ) sport it will kill it. You dont want to put them off - you want them to come along. The divers who are committed to mixed teams will embrace it and work through the safety issues regardless, so your article/notes arent necessarily aimed at them, so they must be aimed at the divers who are maybe anticipating mixed teams or are in mixed teams on occasion and by creating barriers either through complexity or making an entry point too hard might even be counterproductive.
Ive been involved in sports development in other arenas and ive learnt that unless you create easy entry points to development it slows growth.
OP
Right, but do you really think that what I asked the OC diver to understand about CCRs is SO offputting that it would discourage people from diving with a mixed team?
Again, I think that we are thinking about this in different ways. You seem to feel that mixed OC/CCR teams are something to develop, and that we should work on making the path of entry easy.
I feel differently. I feel that mixed teams are suboptimal, but sometimes the most reasonable choice because of a variety of externalities, and if that is the case, then we need to provide extra training to the OC diver to improve their safety.
My article is aimed at OC and CCR divers who want to dive together for whatever reason, and are committed to making it work. It's not to encourage OC divers to go out and find CCR divers to buddy with.
I mean, I tried to explain things as best as I could. I'm not a professional writer. But I'm worried that making it TOO simple would be dangerous...
DoctorMike,
I think that agencies and some individuals try to make things too easy these days. There as a time when we expected divers to try to understand some rather complex topics, to compute surface air consumption rates, to look at decompression problems and decide whether a second dive for the day was practical to the depth they wanted to go to, using tables and a dive plan to map things out. Now, with dive computers and algorithms for diving, this is not necessary and has resulted in instructors and agencies “dumbing down” the instruction to the point where a paper like yours comes under fire for being “too complex.” I think that is off base, and denigrates today’s divers to the point where people are afraid of complex concepts. I think your paper is fine the way it is.
SeaRat
I think that agencies and some individuals try to make things too easy these days. There as a time when we expected divers to try to understand some rather complex topics, to compute surface air consumption rates, to look at decompression problems and decide whether a second dive for the day was practical to the depth they wanted to go to, using tables and a dive plan to map things out. Now, with dive computers and algorithms for diving, this is not necessary and has resulted in instructors and agencies “dumbing down” the instruction to the point where a paper like yours comes under fire for being “too complex.” I think that is off base, and denigrates today’s divers to the point where people are afraid of complex concepts. I think your paper is fine the way it is.
SeaRat
OP
Thanks for that! And I don't mean to dismiss any criticism, that's after all why I started this thread. I realize that the article is fairly complex, but I don't think that it would be useful if it was just simplified to "Hold the DSV in place, and throw the BOV if there is one".
But I think that you understand what I am getting at here - for an open circuit diver to enter into a buddy relationship with a rebreather diver DOES imply an assumption of significantly more responsibilities, and that implies the need for significantly more learning. There's a lot to know, and if an OC diver doesn't feel comfortable buddying with a CCR diver, then the answer is that they shouldn't do it. The answer isn't that the process should be so simplified that it won't scare anyone away.
A basic understanding of how a rebreather functions is not too much of an ask for a person in that situation.
DoctorMike,
The differences you and others mention here between OC divers and CCR divers reminds me a lot of the commentary I read from Harry Reasoner about the difference between a fixed wing pilot and a helicopter pilot. Having crewed both aircraft and helicopters in the USAF, I can attest to the truth here.
Enjoy,
SeaRat
The differences you and others mention here between OC divers and CCR divers reminds me a lot of the commentary I read from Harry Reasoner about the difference between a fixed wing pilot and a helicopter pilot. Having crewed both aircraft and helicopters in the USAF, I can attest to the truth here.
Enjoy,
SeaRat
Attachments
OP
Hah! I love diving, but I'm terrified of flying. I don't even like ladders. But I do like your attached article.
Cave divers are figure skaters, wreck divers are hockey players.
DoctorMike,
That brings up one other difference between OC divers and CCR divers; exercise (or rather, lack of exercise). OC divers usually are not concerned about the work of diving, whereas CCR divers seem obsessed with not exerting. This is because CO2 buildup is very hazardous, and also decreases the “run time” of their absorbent. So when doing a mixed dive (CCR & OC divers), the pace is set by the slowest. This is something from hiking that needs, I think, special emphasis when CCR and OC divers dive as a buddy team.
SeaRat
That brings up one other difference between OC divers and CCR divers; exercise (or rather, lack of exercise). OC divers usually are not concerned about the work of diving, whereas CCR divers seem obsessed with not exerting. This is because CO2 buildup is very hazardous, and also decreases the “run time” of their absorbent. So when doing a mixed dive (CCR & OC divers), the pace is set by the slowest. This is something from hiking that needs, I think, special emphasis when CCR and OC divers dive as a buddy team.
SeaRat
OP
Good point, I'll stress that more...
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