Spin Off.. Is modern scuba gear more efficient today than 20 years ago?

[Walter]

I listed the things that changed HOW I dive.

Well, my dear, that's a horse of another color. This whole thread was started because Teamcasa made a statement that someone who learned to dive 20 years ago needs to take another class because gear is so much different today than it was then. I don't dive the same way I did 20 years ago either, but there's nothing about the gear today that is all that much different that it would require one to retrain.

 

[Thalassamania]

I have just one more thing to say about staying warm in Hyperstretch. Yes, the cells compress a little more at depth and don't seem quite as warm, BUT if you find that the key to being warm enough on that second dive is getting dry, getting your core temp back up, then the ease of getting out of it to handle a boat, help a child, have a warm drink, or prep a camera--etc,in time becomes critical. I actually have a second dry hyperstretch suit. (I think of the wetsuit in miles, so it costs the same)

Let's face it, there is usually a timeline involved with surface intervals and other divers---so that interval has a "get warm function" for me. I just don't have time to struggle and hop around, and I almost never stay wet.

I'm sure the physics would back me up, as long as you concede that time is often a factor. If you are diving deep/ shallow, and using an appropriate range of mil, then you are not going to be cold on the first dive anyway. It is the middle of the second dive that will do you in, because you don't have your *reserve,* core where it needes to be before getting back in.

I will have to check that out, if it easy to doff and don (Ruba-tex)

Smooth skin neoprene (like I use for my suits) creates a semi dry suit (smoth skin is a seal) and dries much faster than hyperflex or any other material, thus it is much warmer on the deck.

 

[Cacia]

years ago needs to take another class because gear is so much different today than it was then

oh...yea, I don't see that. Old retro grouches are better divers because they know how to use their lungs which gets bypassed a lot these days, IMO.

Smooth skin neoprene (like I use for my suits) creates a semi dry suit (smoth skin is a seal) and dries much faster than hyperflex or any other material, thus it is much warmer on the deck

If ya'll like it, I'll have to try it.

 

[DoubleHoseDiver]

It's all in what makes your boat float. A new Corvette is nice, but the 1969 or 1967 is really nicer to me. That said, I have 2 single hose setups and have decided to go " back in the day" and just started using a Aqua Lung DW Mistral regulator that is 50 years old. Using it is so different from the new modern stuff and THAT is what I like...a new challenge! The "vintage" stuff is really cool and I think you acquire a better appreciation for the sport. Tim

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

With regard to wet suits, my 5 mil Aquastretch is as easy or easier to don/doff than my previous old school 3 mil Scubapro, which tore at the ankle in less than 2 years. My range of motion is also as good or better. In between those I had an old school 5 mil Mares, which also tore at the ankles in less than 2 years, was more restrictive to range of motion and had more flush at the wrist, and neck. After hundreds of dives in the new suit, I have not noticed the greater swing in buoyancy due compression and did not feel colder on a recent deep dive. For my diving, the new suit is an improvement (granted 72 deg F is the coldest I've seen in years).

I am not even sure the brands of the worn out rental set I purchased after formal certification in '92 (probably Dacor except the Harvey's long sleeve shorty), but it was very close to 1988 year equipment, and the discontinued entry level equipment I purchased early '01 was a noticeable improvement. My current Oceanic Delta 4/CDX5, purchased in '04, is WAY better than that 2000 MK-12/R190. From my perspective, my reg's have each been an improvement over my previous reg (granted the Oceanic isn't entry level).

The 80's Dacor Jet's I took to my IDC were the butt of much mirth, but at least they were red so I didn't have to take anything extra to show color loss on the AOW deep dive. They were heavy, wide, inflexible and like most of their era, the foot pocket was a pain in my instep. The Mares Avanti line of fins is reasonably priced and a significant improvement for me, especially the comfortable foot pocket. It's not necessarily a new design but it's newer than the Jet design (granted there are lighter, better foot pocket Jets now).

That said, even integrated weight BC's should not require taking OW in '08 because the OW in '88 was so retro, unless the '88 OW class was with '78 era gear. Is it possible an '88 class might have not used BC's? Even though I had a couple hundred pre cert j-valve no-BC dives, I learned a lot of invaluable information in my '92 OW class.

Perhaps 20 years is not far enough back for a decent discussion of progress. When did K-valve, BC diving start? I remember my dad's first CO2 horse-collar dive in '64 (5 y/o snorkeling above). I also don't recall him using it late '60's early '70's when I was diving with him.

I think diving is easier and safer now than it was in days of old. I'm also not sure the manufacturers have increased profit margins so much as they have tried not to lose too much profit margin with the new cheap materials. I would blame all the cheap bastard divers for that; they sure aren't making a lot off me.

 

[24940]

My first suit was a Bailey Farmer John, nylon1 with attached hood, seem tape, spine pad, knee pads and a knife scabbard. It was custom and ran about $600 back in 1978. I chose nylon1, as it is a bit warmer. Though talc made it easier to don, it wasn't that difficult to don without the talc.

I logged over 400 hours on the suit before it was stolen. Most dives were Northwest ocean dives, though I did log several ice dives with the suit. It was a great suit.

I wanted another just like it after the first was stolen, so I ordered an identical suit in 1981. Unfortunately, Bailey was moving towards swim and surf wear and away from wetsuits for diving at that time. The replacement suit was nowhere near the quality of the original. After less than 20 dives, I returned the suit.

I've had several suits since then, but nothing has compared to my original Bailey for comfort and warmth.

 

[Teamcasa]

..This whole thread was started because Teamcasa made a statement that someone who learned to dive 20 years ago needs to take another class because gear is so much different today than it was then...

Please don't put your spin on my comments. My actual quote in thread long time between dives

She should brush up on the books and take a dive or two with an instructor and learn how to use a modern computer . If she was a competent diver in the past, chances are her skills will come back very quickly. Other than the computers, the gear has not changed much in functionality but it is more efficient and expensive.

 

[AbyssalPlains]

Don't need no stink'n computer if you know the tables, tech/DIR divers today, the cutting edge, do not use computers, they use tables, so did we.


N

No need for "stink'n computers" for rectangular profiles, but try a nice reef dive on tables. Only advantage is you'll be the first one back on the boat and get first picks at the snacks....

 

[Thalassamania]

With regard to wet suits, my 5 mil Aquastretch is as easy or easier to don/doff than my previous old school 3 mil Scubapro, which tore at the ankle in less than 2 years. My range of motion is also as good or better. In between those I had an old school 5 mil Mares, which also tore at the ankles in less than 2 years, was more restrictive to range of motion and had more flush at the wrist, and neck. After hundreds of dives in the new suit, I have not noticed the greater swing in buoyancy due compression and did not feel colder on a recent deep dive. For my diving, the new suit is an improvement (granted 72 deg F is the coldest I've seen in years).

I don't think that ScubaPro ever made, or marketed, an "old school" wet suit, I can't not remember a suit in their line made of Rubatex, my memory is that they used suits made overseas out of inferior cheap, foreign, chemically blown rubber. In the early days NASDS shops that sold ScubaPro also sold Bailey Suits, a very high quality suit.

I am not even sure the brands of the worn out rental set I purchased after formal certification in '92 (probably Dacor except the Harvey's long sleeve shorty), but it was very close to 1988 year equipment, and the discontinued entry level equipment I purchased early '01 was a noticeable improvement. My current Oceanic Delta 4/CDX5, purchased in '04, is WAY better than that 2000 MK-12/R190. From my perspective, my reg's have each been an improvement over my previous reg (granted the Oceanic isn't entry level).

The Delta 4/CDX5 is a much better reg than that MK-12/R190, but I still think the even the Delta 4/CDX5 did not stand up to the Oceanic Omega or the Cyclon 300. I can't wait to try the EOS that I hear is the best regulator ever.

The 80's Dacor Jet's I took to my IDC were the butt of much mirth, but at least they were red so I didn't have to take anything extra to show color loss on the AOW deep dive. They were heavy, wide, inflexible and like most of their era, the foot pocket was a pain in my instep. The Mares Avanti line of fins is reasonably priced and a significant improvement for me, especially the comfortable foot pocket. It's not necessarily a new design but it's newer than the Jet design (granted there are lighter, better foot pocket Jets now).

Fins are almost all a mater of personal perferance, usually based on the fin you leaned on which greatly influeces the way you devekop you kick cycle.

That said, even integrated weight BC's should not require taking OW in '08 because the OW in '88 was so retro, unless the '88 OW class was with '78 era gear. Is it possible an '88 class might have not used BC's? Even though I had a couple hundred pre cert j-valve no-BC dives, I learned a lot of invaluable information in my '92 OW class.

An '88 class might have been at the tail end of horse collar BCs. IMHO, weight integrated BCs are perhaps the greatest step backward with respect to diving safety that the industry has ever taken. The only good thing that I can say about them is that you don't have to put weights in one.

Perhaps 20 years is not far enough back for a decent discussion of progress. When did K-valve, BC diving start? I remember my dad's first CO2 horse-collar dive in '64 (5 y/o snorkeling above). I also don't recall him using it late '60's early '70's when I was diving with him.

K-valves were available from the start, J-valves were an "upgrade." BCs (as opposed to a Mae West) were available in the early to mid 1960s (CO2 was still available, powere inflators were intially home made and took advantage of the the fact that the thread in a CO2 detonator was exactly the same as a regulator host).

I think diving is easier and safer now than it was in days of old. I'm also not sure the manufacturers have increased profit margins so much as they have tried not to lose too much profit margin with the new cheap materials. I would blame all the cheap bastard divers for that; they sure aren't making a lot off me.

I see no evidence of diving being easier and safer as a result of changes in gear, but then the massive reduction in training would mask that singnal anyway.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

IMHO, weight integrated BCs are perhaps the greatest step backward with respect to diving safety that the industry has ever taken. The only good thing that I can say about them is that you don't have to put weights in one.

...

I see no evidence of diving being easier and safer as a result of changes in gear, but then the massive reduction in training would mask that singnal anyway.

I was recently asked to put together an estimate for outfitting a 6-pack dive boat. It was hard to stomach when I was forced to conclude that the Seaquest Pro QD was the best choice for this business proposal. As you say, we don't have to put weights in them, but unfortunately many pear shaped vacation divers will.

It is very understandable that in your opinion your students from 30 years ago are not less prepared than your current students, although I'm sure todays students benefit from some trial and error with the previous students. Due to the fact that so many non water comfortable people are diving without serious injury I still see this recreation as easier and safer, in part due the equipment progression.