Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[MikeFerrara]

What I loved about my NiTek Plus was that it had a manual but also a 'quick-start' guide where every possible menu and button combination was laid out, telling you what each did. That was pretty neat.

Do you know one thing I hate about gadgets in general?

Between TV's, VCR's DVD players, power tools, regs, lights, cameras, computers, software and lots of other catagories that I'm not going to bother itemizing, I just about need to rent warehouse space just to store the manuals. I'd need a good secretary to organize it all so I could ever find it if I needed it. To be really prepared I'd need to keep at least a box of every type of battery, o-ring and filter known to mankind on hand. I could spend all weekend every weekend doing maintenance on all the gadgets that need maintenance and it would take a professional preventative maintenance schedule just to keep all my rechargeable batteries charged. I have more dive gear that is behind on servicing than most people own and it would take me more time to service it than most people spend diving in a year.

I rejoice in every gismo that comes with a manual, needs o-rings, batteries, filter, oil or maintenance of any kind that I find a way to live without.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Go out and buy a big 3-inch D-ring binder, write "MANUALS" on it. Throw all your equipment/appliance manuals in there in alphabetical order and never go nuts trying to keep up with all of it again.

 

[Ann Marie]

My point was that a computer/bottom timer, etc... should not be considered a primary piece of gear. It is a backup for your brain. If you are teaching that a computer is an essential piece of gear, what are you teaching them to use as a backup? Obviously not tables...

Robert, computer algorithms are based on the tables and the eRDP is just an electronic version of the table. I’m just teaching them a different method of gaining the information that they need to make a dive.

If your bottom timer/depth guage goes out during a deep dive, what good are the tables going to do you when you can't monitor your time or depth?

Of course a computer/bottom timer is backup for your brain, I don't think anyone is arguing that. It is just another tool for your brain to use. I'm not teaching people to turn on a computer and turn off a brain.

If my bottom timer were to die during a dive, I should have a very close approximation to my depth and time as I check every five minutes. If, during the period between the last time I checked andthe point were I find it has failed, I know that five minutes ago I was at x depth at y time. Why would I need to thumb the dive? If I called a turn around at this point and headed back to the entry, I have a damn good idea of how long it will take and what my average depth would be, as I had been keeping track of it for the first half of the dive

Isn't calling a turing around and heading back to the entry the same thing as ending the dive? You aren't continuing on, right?

Don't forget this discussion is based on Open Water Students. They don't have the experience yet to make an informed decision in what way they should end the dive. I would rather a new diver immediately end the dive, safely ascending and to make a safety stop, than to try estimate what it will take to get back to the starting point only to find out they estimated incorrectly and have to now fix a larger problem.

Once a diver has gained experience then they can make an informed decision on how to end a dive with a piece of equipment failure but until then isn't it better to error on the side of caution?

Do people stop using tables because they bought a computer and now believe they have no use for them, or did they stop using tables because they found they did not need them because they are useless?

I'm not sure....perhaps you should poll the crowd.

 

[mikerault]

The biggest problem with the darn thing is it is too fragile, even if they are cracker jack with using it, it will not do them anygood if it breaks when a butterfly farts at it. The need to ruggedize them before replacing the charts (which are nearly indestructable under normal use) with them.

Mike

 

[Thalassamania]

The problem with teaching computers is that no two different models are alike. So you teach your students how to use x model computer and then they rent or buy y model computer and it doesn't have the same interface, it uses different models, it lacks features, etc. As Bob also stated it makes the student to reliant on the computer. What happens when the computer dies during a dive? Will the student be competent enough know where they are with nitrogen loading ?

If you taught the theory well it really doesn't matter what computer (or set of tables for that matter) they use.

 

[Robert Phillips]

Amascuba,
I'm not sure what part of "I have no strong opinion...." you don't understand. I wasn't justifying ANYTHING, I was pointing out that Robert's assertion (as I read it) or justification that someone using tables was more likely to monitor their bottom timer than a computer user, is a weak argument. You see, that's why I substituted the word "bottom-timer" for "computer" in his quote. It works either way. [/banging head against keyboard]

Uh, I also substituted computer/bottom timer in my post. I never implied in my post that someone using table would be more likely to monitor their bottom timer/computer than someone solely trained on using a computer alone. My point was that a computer/bottom timer is not a primary piece of equipment. If people are trained into thinking that it is yet they are not being taught (by SC) about any backup for that piece of equipment because tables are no longer being taught by Sports Chalet. The eRDP is a calculator not a table. It does not let you see correlations with time and depth etc..
You put numbers in and it displays the answer... WOW!
People can think the eRDP is a table all they want, it still doesnt make it a table.

And for the record, if I were doing a dive where I thought it would be essential to know depth and run time for the entire dive, I would thumb it if my BT crapped on me, but I'd carry a backup for my backup so I would use it.

Their backup is called their buddy. Peice of gear craps out, you end the dive.

[Sarcastic inference]So do you teach people to use their buddies computer?[/inference]

[Sarcastic insinuation]

No more than you turn your brain off and blindly follow your tables.

[/Sarcastic insinuation]


Pete, you should chill a little in the inferences and insinuations. It tends to annoy doesnt it

 

[CompuDude]

The biggest problem with the darn thing is it is too fragile, even if they are cracker jack with using it, it will not do them anygood if it breaks when a butterfly farts at it. The need to ruggedize them before replacing the charts (which are nearly indestructable under normal use) with them.

That's one of the points I was trying to make, thank you!

Another thought in the same vein: You could (if you chose) bring your tables with you. You could even shrink them down, or copy basic/relevant info into wetnotes that, again, you could bring down with you.

You cannot, however, bring the eRDP down with you. (Not if you want it to function)

Tables + a watch and depth gauge can replace a computer, because they at least have the capability to work at depth. The eRDP, however, cannot. Sport Chalet would have done divers more of a favor by including tables and a cheap plain calculator, than replacing sturdy tables for a POS plastic single-use calculator that cannot serve all the same purposes as simple tables can. They're charging a premium for something with LESS functionality and a FAR greater likelihood of being lost or broken. Put Another Dollar In indeed...

 

[Ann Marie]

My point was that a computer/bottom timer is not a primary piece of equipment. If people are trained into thinking that it is yet they are not being taught (by SC) about any backup for that piece of equipment because tables are no longer being taught by Sports Chalet.

I guess we can agree to disagree in what we each consider to be primary equipment.

But I am confused on the point that you are trying to make with the above. If I pull out my handy-dandy eRDP to plan a dive, it will tell me the exact information that my trusty blue and white tables are going to tell me, correct? Now if I pull out a computer and in the 'plan mode' plan my dive, I'll get a number close to what my table and/or eRDP tells me, correct? Now here is where I'm confused....if I do this with a student how am I not teaching them about any backup for a computer?

What does it matter if someone uses a table, wheel, eRDP, or computer to get the information needed to plan their dive as long as they are planning thier dive?

On a side note, I too wish the eRDP was more rugged. It will be interesting to see how students respond to the eRDP.

 

[GA Under Water]

I don't know much about the SCUBA world yet more than the book part of it all. I have been told that I am a pretty good diver. but being part of the computer world I have to bring one thing over

R.T.F.M.

READ THE FREAKIN MANUAL

it helps learn the computer you are using, the RDP or the wheel to keep you from missing you dive due to computer failure. The RDP, WHEEL, computer should be the order you plan your dives. if you rely on computers remember from someone that has 16 years service as a computer support specialist. ELECTRONICS FAIL!!!!!!!!!!! do NOT trust them. The only way you fail figuring it out is a bad class to teach it and brain failure which usually ends in death and no one has to worry about it any longer. LEARN your RDP (no aritficial failure) then your eRDP (artificial failure), WHEEL (no artificial failure), computer (artificial failure).

The Life you save could VERY well be your own.

 

[neil]

I never implied in my post that someone using table would be more likely to monitor their bottom timer/computer than someone solely trained on using a computer alone.

Okay, I'll accept that, but it wasn't clear to me.

My point was that a computer/bottom timer is not a primary piece of equipment. If people are trained into thinking that it is yet they are not being taught (by SC) about any backup for that piece of equipment because tables are no longer being taught by Sports Chalet. The eRDP is a calculator not a table. It does not let you see correlations with time and depth etc..
You put numbers in and it displays the answer... WOW!
People can think the eRDP is a table all they want, it still doesnt make it a table.

When I teach students about computers I let them know that the best backup, IMO, is a second computer. Tables as a backup to computers doesn't always work, as you know. With a backup computer, would you consider the comp as a primary tool?

We're in agreement on the eRDP: the concept of being able to see correlations is vital. I will ALWAYS teach tables to students. Frankly, I don't see how you can teach computer use without teaching tables first.