The only stupid question......

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Pauly854

Contributor
Messages
140
Reaction score
35
Location
Owensboro, Kentucky
This may qualify as a stupid question, so blast me if you feel the need.:dork2: Salt water is heavier than fresh water. Fresh water is lighter than salt water. But the atmospheric pressure is the same? Unless I am just thinking too much, it seems that the depth of each ATM of pressure would be different. Example: if 33ft of salt water is 2ATM, then why isn't 33ft of fresh water 1.8ATM(est)?
 
You are thinking correctly. To go an additional atm in salt water happens quicker (er... shallower) than in fresh water. However, to my knowledge most tables and computers are configured for saltwater (unless you change the settings), so the fact that fresh water is lighter poses very few if any additional safety risks.
 
The pressure exerted by 33 feet of salt water is more than that of 33 feet of fresh water. The difference is not that great however.
 
You are thinking correctly. To go an additional atm in salt water happens quicker (er... shallower) than in fresh water. However, to my knowledge most tables and computers are configured for saltwater (unless you change the settings), so the fact that fresh water is lighter poses very few if any additional safety risks.

That answers my question nicely. I had wondered if computers/tables were configured towards one, over the other. It makes sense to configure it to the one with the most pressure. Thanks
 
That answers my question nicely. I had wondered if computers/tables were configured towards one, over the other. It makes sense to configure it to the one with the most pressure. Thanks

Glad I could help. However, every dive computer is different, so be sure and check up on whatever one you have or rent. Also, some may have different settings for fresh water or saltwater that requires you to manually change the setting. Finally, I have heard that some dive computers can miscalculate depth in either fresh water or salt water (I forget which) due to the increase or decrease in pressure, but I don't remember it being a significant difference.

As for the Recreational Dive Planner tables, any difference is insignificant due to the fact that they are acceptable for use up to 1000 ft above sea level, even though they are initially formulated for use at sea level.

Edit: While it is true that diving according to the tables will give you less pressure at the same depth in fresh water than in salt water (which means less dissolved nitrogen), it also means that nitrogen comes out of your body more easily.

The straight dope is that even if everything I said was backwards or wrong, any actual pressure difference between fresh water and salt water is insignificant in terms of recreational diving.
 
Fresh water is 62# per cubic foot and exerts 43.0555..... #/ sqin at 100'
Salt water is 64# per cubic foot and exerts 44.4444.... #/sqin at 100' (Dependant on salinity in area)
Thats about a 3' (3%) difference over a hundred feet, possibly smaller than the margin of error of your gear.

My computer corrects for altitude and will switch to fresh water at 2000' elevation.


Bob
---------------------------------------
There is no problem that can't be solved with a liberal application of sex, tequila, money, duct tape, or high explosives, not necessarily in that order.
 
1 atm of fresh water is about 34'. Or to be more precise, a column of fresh water 34' tall will exert a pressure of about 1 atmosphere.

With regards to computers and decompression calculations, it doesn't matter whether it is fresh water or saltwater. What the computer measures and what counts for deco calculations is the pressure. Whether you are diving in saltwater or freshwater and whether the computer displays fsw or ffw is totally irrelevant. Not just insignificant, but truly not relevant and with zero effect on the calculations.

Extra trivia on deco units of measure: Feet-saltwater is a unit of pressure, not distance, and is defined as 1/33 of 1 atmosphere of 1.01325 bar. Meter-saltwater is defined as 1/10 of 1.00 bar. The result of these two definitions is that the ratio of fsw to msw (feet-saltwater to meters-saltwater) is different than the ratio between feet and meters. The difference being the 1.325% difference between 1 atm and 1 bar.
 
With regards to computers and decompression calculations, it doesn't matter whether it is fresh water or saltwater. What the computer measures and what counts for deco calculations is the pressure. Whether you are diving in saltwater or freshwater and whether the computer displays fsw or ffw is totally irrelevant. Not just insignificant, but truly not relevant and with zero effect on the calculations.

I didn't even think about that. This is totally true!
 
I've been thinking about that for a while.... we use depth as a proxy for pressure since it's easier to make sense of 100ft/30m than 4ATAs but it's the pressure that matters for NDL/deco calculations not the distance from the surface.

In the case of a computer... it shouldn't need any calibration whatsoever, it reads pressure, converts it to ft/m to display it to you and then it either feeds the pressure into the algorithm or the depth. Pressure would seem wiser since it removes a lot of unit changes. Done this way the fact that you're diving fresh/salt water doesn't enter into the equation. If the computer feeds depth to its algorithm it's pretty sure that the manufacturer uses the same ATA per ft/m ratio than it used to go from pressure to depth so once again it doesn't matter if you're diving fresh/salt water.

The same holds for tables, but you'd need to make sure your depth gauge is converting pressure to depth the same way your table is doing it. If your table is using salt water depths and your depth gauge is using salt water depth, it shouldn't matter if you dive fresh water since the depth in both cases doesn't represent depth but pressure.

In any case the difference is probably smaller than the safety margin built into these systems.

Is that making sense for anybody else?
 
Last edited:
The same holds for tables, but you'd need to make sure your depth gauge is converting pressure to depth the same way your table is doing it. If your table is using salt water depths and your depth gauge is using salt water depht, it shouldn't matter if you dive fresh water since the depth in both cases doesn't represent depth but pressure.

Is that making sense for anybody else?

Let's make things a bit weird to make it more intuitive. Let's say salt water, at 33 ft, is 2 atm, and let's say fresh water, at 66 ft, is 2 atm. While the difference is not that large, we concede that there is indeed a difference, so enlarging said difference will only enlarge any error we are attempting to isolate.

Thus:
A pressure gauge in salt water at a pressure at 2 atms will output a depth of 33 ft, when the actual depth is 33 ft.
A pressure gauge in fresh water at a pressure of 2 atms will output a depth of 33 ft, when the actual depth is 66 ft.
The dive table will receive an input of 33 ft regardless of the actual real depth of the diver.
The dive table will translate 33 ft to 2 atms.

Everything would be fine! Except the diver may be a little more cold thinking they are at 33 ft! Lol.

However, as you mentioned, the actual difference is so small as to be a moot point. Our instruments just aren't that accurate, but the least accurate by far (in this scenario) are the dive tables, since you have to figure everything based on your deepest depth during the entire dive. But what are scuba forums for if we can't examine something statistically insignificant? :rofl3:

To throw a real wrench into everything, I don't really think Dive Tables are formulated based on salt water! As far as I know, they are based on evidence gathered from real life dives on real life divers. Basically, gather a bunch of volunteers together, put them at different depths for different times, and record the results. Apply some spiffy data analysis, remove outliers, then figure out how many standard deviations or where at in the bell curve you are comfortable drawing the line for all scuba divers in general.

(I guess I should note that if your gauge is calibrated for fresh water, in the above example we would still be safe. Here's why:

A pressure gauge in salt water at a pressure at 2 atms will output a depth of 66 ft, when the actual depth is 33 ft.
A pressure gauge in fresh water at a pressure of 2 atms will output a depth of 66 ft, when the actual depth is 66 ft.
The dive table will receive an input of 66 ft regardless of the actual real depth of the diver.
The dive table will translate 66 ft to 3 atms.

Because the table thinks we are at a greater pressure than we really are, our dives will be cut shorter on time, in effect giving us less residual nitrogen, with a larger safety margin than necessary.)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom