The problem of long-term support for boutique equipment

[2airishuman]

It hasn't been that long since I started diving and bought my own gear. Several years. I bought a Deep Sea Supply BC, and a HOG regset, with a D1 first stage and "classic" second stage.

As far as the products themselves, they're both fantastic. Well thought out, reasonably priced, durable, pretty much everything I could want.

The D1 and "classic" second stage have been discontinued. HOG has changed its sales strategy, and HOG/Edge products now have street pricing that is almost double what it was a few years ago. Service kits are still available but the original promise of full support for owner servicing has been rolled back and you have to take a class (not locally available in my case) to be in the club.

In any case the idea that I could buy identical gear for me and the other divers in my life, and have interchangeable parts and be able to leverage service experience across everything we dive, has been lost.

I have DSS wings for myself and my daughter. DSS having more or less disappeared with no guarantee of re-emergence has also made these into orphan products. While in theory wing parts are interchangeable across vendors, there are problems in practice. Single-tank wings, especially, often will not fit on competing backplates because the strap placement isn't standardized. Generic exhaust elbows will appear to fit on DSS wings, but will not seal, because the internal shape is subtly different. And the whole idea with the DSS BCs is that they're a system and you can change backplates and wings and weight plates to get what you need as your requirements evolve.

So my advice is to be careful who you buy your gear from, if it is something that you expect to get support for 5, 10, 20 years from now. Even if you're buying it from a great guy.

Because even great guys find that their priorities changes over the years. And nobody's in the dive retail business for the money.

 

[tbone1004]

@2airishuman
parts kits for Deep6 DGX will work in the D1's and @Jim Lapenta can probably help you if it gives you warm fuzzies to have HOG on them. That said, the issue there is a huge part of why Chris left....

On DSS. The plates will outlast the wings, so wing fitment on another backplate shouldn't much of a concern. On the doubles side it is all universal. The elbow flanges can be changed to generic ones should you ever need it, but IIRC I have swapped standard ones on there and they sealed, so the gasket may need to be replaced since the "Seat" that is taken on the gasket may be different.

Point is valid though and it is a concern. That said, Mares did the same thing to Dacor when they bought them, AUP did it with Aeris, and Huish has done it with Hollis/Oceanic and Zeagle, so there's no guarantee that it won't happen to a big manufacturer either.

 

[2airishuman]

@2airishuman
parts kits for Deep6 DGX will work in the D1's and @Jim Lapenta can probably help you if it gives you warm fuzzies to have HOG on them. That said, the issue there is a huge part of why Chris left....

Right, well, I have parts and sources lined up for now. I got my wing fixed before Tobin woke up one morning and decided he couldn't stand California any longer.

Once you accept that you can't base your buying decisions on ongoing support, buying whatever's cheapest and ordering your first two service kits at the same time to stick in a drawer starts to seem like the only rational choice.

 

[BoltSnap]

Mares did the same thing to Dacor when they bought them, AUP did it with Aeris, and Huish has done it with Hollis/Oceanic and Zeagle, so there's no guarantee that it won't happen to a big manufacturer either.

The companies that bought other companies continued to support the dealer and end-user and never stopped making parts for them or honoring warranties. Some of the products reached eol but that happens to any product eventually. I don't see a problem with Hollis/Oceanic and Zeagle now after the takeover by Huish at all. In fact, one can argue that they are now much more stable and more streamlined than before.

What the OP is talking about is different as I understand it, it has more to do with the "boutique" equipment flyby-night manufacturers. These smaller companies may end up to be big companies but more often they face big financial difficulties and just disappear overnight leaving the end-user and dealer stuck.

 

[tbone1004]

@BurhanMuntasser tell that to Dacor regulator owners who had no parts shortly thereafter, same with the others. A lot of parts are no longer available because the design was canned and they chose not to offer support. That vs. Apeks and Poseidon who still offer parts for everything they've ever made. Scubapro is up there too. Atomic is too young of a brand IMO to even think about not supporting anything, but Poseidon still offers parts for their 1958 regulators....

 

[BoltSnap]

@BurhanMuntasser tell that to Dacor regulator owners who had no parts shortly thereafter, same with the others. A lot of parts are no longer available because the design was canned and they chose not to offer support. That vs. Apeks and Poseidon who still offer parts for everything they've ever made. Scubapro is up there too. Atomic is too young of a brand IMO to even think about not supporting anything, but Poseidon still offers parts for their 1958 regulators....

I was a DACOR and Mares dealer during these items and I know very well what happened. We didn't have issues with parts and eventually Mares offered upgrade deals to DACOR owners. Mares USA was at that time a very messed up company to begin with and I know that very well. This scenario is more of an exception than the rule as you point out how it is with AL/Apeks, SP and Poseidon. Atomic is almost 30 years old btw. Your statement supports what I said actually.

 

[txgoose]

Ah, we’ve already made it to 50% of an equation being right so I chose my side.

 

[2airishuman]

There are some aftermarket service kits that have started showing up for the old DACOR regs, fwiw, just in the last few years, but my understanding is that there were quite a number of DACOR customers who were upset that their fairly-new regulators could no longer be serviced.

Which of the major brands was it that had a "free parts for life" deal that they changed the rules on?

 

[JackD342]

There are some aftermarket service kits that have started showing up for the old DACOR regs, fwiw, just in the last few years, but my understanding is that there were quite a number of DACOR customers who were upset that their fairly-new regulators could no longer be serviced.

Which of the major brands was it that had a "free parts for life" deal that they changed the rules on?

I don't know for certain, but the anecdotal info I have heard is that the Scubapro program was never consumer friendly, and has recently become even harder to use, if at all. Several others have converted to biannual overhauls instead of yearly, but I don't think that is what you refer to.

 

[divad]

Once you accept that you can't base your buying decisions on ongoing support, buying whatever's cheapest and ordering your first two service kits at the same time to stick in a drawer starts to seem like the only rational choice.

That's what I did. Very smug (I mean Happy) now.