Thoughts on Deep and Wreck Diving

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LavaSurfer

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Keep in mind that I am very naive at this point and learning as I go.

Having read several texts on the topic of deep and wreck diving as well and referencing back to my PADI open water Manuals, PADI ERD and many other texts that I have at hand, I see a disconnect or shift that takes place somewhere in the move from “Recreational Diving” to “Technical” diving. This shift is away from the reliance on a “Buddy” to viewing a “Buddy” as a liability.

Many of the Deep and Wreck Divers I have read from or about, Gilliam, Gentile, Eckley and Chatterton to name a few depend solely on their own underwater resources and skill. They do not appear to gas plan for others at all but only for their own survival. They dive with doubles to 210 FSW for 25 minutes leaving no room for bailing out a buddy on the bottom or on a hang line.

Another point I seem to see is that they wear only enough back gas to complete the depth portion of the dive and then a partial deco. Then they pick up deco gasses on the line to complete their debt. I believe that Gentile likes Nx70 if I remember from my reading and others like Nx50. Most seem to like 100% O2 at the 20 foot mark which makes sense and they do switched to blend to give their bodies/lungs a rest every 15 minutes or so.

Another interesting point that was made by Gentile in Deep, Dark and Dangerous was the apparent overemphasis on algorithm dependency and over learning of theory instead of just doing what is needed. He balked at the people that sit on the boat and run algorithms all day long and then plan accordingly. He stated that they may make a 200 FSW dive, leave the bottom right on time and hit ad leave every stop to the second. They make a picture perfect dive and miss the entire reason for diving in the first place. What happens when they overstay a minute? Can they then rethink the tables in their head and make adjustments or do they throw out the tables and just hope the computer is right, And how about computers that calculate DECO and deep stops like the VR3?

The metaphor Gary uses is; a race car driver doesn’t need to know every single detail of how the engine is build and tuned to race, he just needs to know some basics about the engine and the cars capabilities and then its up to his experience and skill. Vice Versa, the engine specialist may know everything about how the car and engine run including the timing curves, fuel ratios, tire pressure and oil pressure but he would be dangerous behind the wheel in a race situation. I paraphrased from memory so don’t beat me down.

I see this as a classic example of experience vs. knowledge.

Do I have a point here? Not really, just a few thoughts that might start some interesting discussion.

Thanks for reading this ramble,
Scooter
 
Where would you like us to start?

Gilliam, deco gas selection, gas planning, bottle dropping on wrecks, padi, Gentile, solo vs. buddy system, computer vs. tables........

what are you asking dude?
 
Scooter, I don't think the NE big name wreck divers are typical of the current views of technical dive education. Of course, Sheck is dead. TDI still maintains that "only you can do your deco," I've had nothing in my 3 tech classes that suggested I abandon buddy (or team) diving.

As far as algorithms go, well you pretty much have to choose one and make a plan and contingency plans. The DIR folks do ratio deco which seems more fluid than the

GAS DEPTH RUN STOP

plans we made by hand in class. I will continue using those kinds of plans, perhaps with a software-generated starting point, because this is really not something where you can 'wing it" unless you have a lot of experience.

I'm very new at this, but I haven't seen anything in my classes that remotely sounds like the kind of diving Gentile writes about, although I do enjoy some of his books. :)
 
Scuba_Steve:
Where would you like us to start?

Gilliam, deco gas selection, gas planning, bottle dropping on wrecks, padi, Gentile, solo vs. buddy system, computer vs. tables........

what are you asking dude?
As I said
Do I have a point here? Not really, just a few thoughts that might start some interesting discussion.
I am just looking for some interesting conversation aside from the typical argument over MOF, Air2 etc...

I am very interested in DECO Diving and thought others might do as safety stop here and offer some interesting thoughts.

The "Greats" if thats what they are, seem to not follow the "rules" clearly. I wanted some thoughts on that. I find it interesting when I run numbers in v-planner the amount of gas required if I were to dive using rock bottom. Its almost impossible without looking like a delta rocket with all those tanks strapped to your side and between the legs etc. (I am exagerating, but only a little). I am not talking about 110 FSW dives for 15 minutes but more like 170 FSW for 25 minutes.

No I am not interested in a conversation on PADI but all the others you mention interest me. I know there is a lot I covered so if you want, pick a topic.

Start with bottle dropping if your so inclined. I can think of several pro's like not having to carry them with you and con's like losing your life support because you cannot find them to another diver using them in a panic.
 
TheRedHead:
Scooter, I don't think the NE big name wreck divers are typical of the current views of technical dive education. Of course, Sheck is dead. TDI still maintains that "only you can do your deco," I've had nothing in my 3 tech classes that suggested I abandon buddy (or team) diving.
Thats the point I am making or seeing, the big name wreck divers seem to do thier own thing. I am sure that wouldn't fly in a class room bacause, for no other reason, LIABILITY!


TheRedHead:
The DIR folks do ratio deco which seems more fluid than the
I read the pdf someone provided. I am going to read it again because it made my brain swell and I had to decompress :wink: Interesting concept and like you said, a little more fluid.
 
LavaSurfer:
<snip>I see a disconnect or shift that takes place somewhere in the move from &#8220;Recreational Diving&#8221; to &#8220;Technical&#8221; diving. This shift is away from the reliance on a &#8220;Buddy&#8221; to viewing a &#8220;Buddy&#8221; as a liability.
<snip>
Oddly, I find that I am less "buddy reliant" when diving recreationally, than when overhead-restricted.

Indeed I am more self-sufficent (overhead), with redundant equipment and all, but my buddy is an intergal part of my overall redundancy.

All the best, James
 
LavaSurfer:
I find it interesting when I run numbers in v-planner the amount of gas required if I were to dive using rock bottom. Its almost impossible without looking like a delta rocket with all those tanks strapped to your side and between the legs etc. (I am exagerating, but only a little). I am not talking about 110 FSW dives for 15 minutes but more like 170 FSW for 25 minutes.

What kind of profiles are your running? Did you plug in 1 deco gas, say 50/50, at 70 feet? I actually did a similar 170 foot dive and used 56 cu feet of backgas. Double AL 80s (for me) are plenty for this dive. I'm not sure how rock bottom is applied to tech diving. You are much less likely to lose all of your gas with doubles. I'm interested in the answers to these questions too.
 
The solo self-sufficient Northeast Wreck Diver a la McMurray's book Deep Descent and others, is so Old School. New & improved is DIR and the concept of the Unified Team. Here are some more PDF's/links about gas planning for yourself and the Team:
http://www.breakthrudiving.com/pdfs/battlefieldcalc.pdf
http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1640508&postcount=61
http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=735077&postcount=33

Explains how to calculate "on-the-fly" your gas consumption.
Tip: easiest way to figure out ATA's at depth (which is needed for the above methods) is to have one of your depth gauges read in meters --(divide depth in meters by ten and add plus one to get ATA). . .
 
Kevrumbo:
is to have one of your depth gauges read in meters --(divide depth in meters by ten and add plus one to get ATA). . .

Wow, that is slick. I was wondering how anyone but Lamont could divide by 33 in their head. :D
 
Without going to the source and asking these deep/wreck divers you have referenced,,,,we all don't really know their true method and reasons--period. Their dive planning and execution I can assure you does include gas management and team coordination or what you are refering to as 'buddies'. I don't know of anyone in the tec world of diving that does not consider gas management of prime concern whether it is cave//wreck or o/w deep. ??????? Team work and responsibility to your fellow members is very important both for your survival and theirs....but as any good diver should know from rec to tec....self preservation/preperation is always on the top of the list right along with gas management and planning. No one wreck or artificial reef or cave system will dictate exactly the same method of diving as its brother,,,and in the real world of tec you will have to make decsions on the fly. Divers have different methodology and approachs to situations ,both known and unknown. The original posters questions are very vast and in fact each part would take well beyond the scope of this forum to explore,,,,but his questions and interest is well founded and the input from fellow SBers will be I am sure interesting to read. :)
 

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