Three man buddy teams

[MikeFerrara]

I saw that Uncle promised a thread dealing with three man teams. I went looking for it but didn't find it so I thought I'd start one.

On another thread a few people seemed to think three man teams were a no-no and thought every one (especially instructors) should know this and were somehow incompetant if they didn't.

Personally, I like three man teams (and I'm an instructor...though inactive at this time). It's that many more hands, eyes and brains in a manageable sized package. True it's a little different than diving in a two man team but it works well. I don't like bigger teams and when there's more than three we break up into multiple 2 or 3 person teams.

Please comment as you see fit but before replying that 3 person teams are somehow taboo you might want to look into what some of the agencies like NACD, NSS-CDS, GUE, IANTD, TDI and others have to say on the subject.

What say you?
On your mark...get set..go!

 

[Rick Inman]

We dive three all the time, no problem. Of course, it depends on the three divers, but that's true with two as well. It only takes another second to keep an eye on an additional diver.
I really like four. It's a fun group size but you're still really just two pairs, so if there is separation it's no biggie.
Of course, I'm talking typical OW here, not overheads or any non-rec environments, so YMMV.

 

[pipedope]

Just to be clear.
Three man teams are fine.

A buddy pair with a third diver along for the ride is not such a good thing.

The key is the TEAM, as long as each diver is an equal member of the team there is no problem.

 

[Marek K]

Mike, I'm very glad you (or somebody) started this thread.

I see nothing doctrinally wrong with three-person buddy teams. Especially if the team is used to working with one another.

But for your "average" diver (like me), maybe thrown together in a trio on a dive boat with a diver or divers unfamiliar to them, I think it's much more problematic than being with just one other unfamiliar buddy. Two people to watch out for, likely in two different directions... you know the argument.

My last three-person buddy "team" experience, a bad one, was last summer at the Red Sea. I was put together with two German divers... I think the two of them knew each other, but just casually. One guy obviously considered himself to be an "advanced" diver, who was familiar with the dive site; so he became the de-facto leader.

We did our buddy checks, and briefly (too briefly) planned the dive.

On the bottom, the "leader" pretty quickly started out-pacing us. He wouldn't even turn around to check where his buddies were. The other German was competent, but a much slower swimmer. I gave him a "WTF" hand signal, and he just waved his hand dismissively showing me to to let the "leader" go.

Unfortunately, I didn't think to even take a compass heading (another lesson learned). And I didn't want to completely lose the "leader" in any case, in case something happened to him. Figure viz was about 15m/50 ft; the "leader" was barely in sight. Trying to keep him in sight, I ended up slightly ahead of the second guy. I kept craning around to keep an eye on Number 2, and noticed him going more and more shallow above and behind me -- bad configuration. Suddenly, I noticed he had disappeared. Just about that time, the "leader" came back to where I was; we did a quick look around with the "leader," then surfaced together. Turned out Number 2 had developed a cramp, and had surfaced by himself; he was halfway back to the boat alone (about 100 meters away).

I know, I know... p*** poor planning. But I assumed (yeah, I know what that stands for) that the term "buddy team" means the same to everyone.

I don't think this would have happened with a two-person team; even with total strangers, and even with less-than-acceptable planning.

I just have a really bad feeling about three-person teams now.

But then, I suspect your mileage may vary.

--Marek

 

[Uncle Pug]

Shoot Mike, yo're a Claim Jumper! Actually I appreciate you starting this... I forgot.

Three diver teams work for some dives and don't work for others. In any case, as Michael said, the key is TEAM.

Mike since you started the thread I'll let you describe a typical three diver team operation... and I'll give an example of where a three diver team does not work:

I have done Deception Pass several times with a three diver team but never again. If the current flow were precisely predictable and laminar it wouldn't be such a problem. If the visibility were greater than 10' it wouldn't be a problem. However it has often been the case that visibility is <10' and currents are decidedly non-laminar and un-predictable at times. Keeping track of three divers while trying to dodge maneating barnacle studded walls and pinnacles, dealing with up/down/side wellings and watching out for gillnets and fishing line is not something I want to do anymore. For this dive, two diver teams are the rule...at least my rule.

 

[Uncle Pug]

I just have a really bad feeling about three-person teams now.

Examining your post it is clear that the problem really wasn't with the number three... it was the lack of a TEAM.

It appears obvious, to me at least, that what you describe, while all too typical, is the lack of team diving skills on the part of all participants. Please do not take this personally as an attack on you... it isn't.

Most divers have never been taught team diving skills... I hate to use the word *buddy* skills since the word *buddy* is almost meaningless in regard to true teamwork the way it is used these days. A *buddy* is someone you are paired up with for the dive... and as long as everyone has a *buddy* it is assumed that the requirement is met.

Just having two divers in the equation will not magically produce a team and make the dive safe. And having three divers in the equation does not keep a team from being a safe unit. In fact... some dives are much safer utilizing a three diver team!

 

[cdiver2]

Shoot Mike, yo're a Claim Jumper! Actually I appreciate you starting this... I forgot.

Three diver teams work for some dives and don't work for others. In any case, as Michael said, the key is TEAM.

Mike since you started the thread I'll let you describe a typical three diver team operation... and I'll give an example of where a three diver team does not work:

I have done Deception Pass several times with a three diver team but never again. If the current flow were precisely predictable and laminar it wouldn't be such a problem. If the visibility were greater than 10' it wouldn't be a problem. However it has often been the case that visibility is <10' and currents are decidedly non-laminar and un-predictable at times. Keeping track of three divers while trying to dodge maneating barnacle studded walls and pinnacles, dealing with up/down/side wellings and watching out for gillnets and fishing line is not something I want to do anymore. For this dive, two diver teams are the rule...at least my rule.

100% the only thing I would add is that we always agree who is the dive leader our job is to make sure we stay with him, his job make sure we do our job. If I want to go in a different direction I go through him he says ya or nay and we move as a team

 

[knotical]

This might seem obvious to some, but it seems to help others:

In a two-person team, there is 1 relationship (A-B), and each diver has to watch for 1 other person.
In a three-person team, there are 3 relationships (A-B, A-C, B-C), and each diver has to watch for 2 other members. Of course, in case of problems, there are two divers to help.
In a four-person team, there are 6 relationships (A-B, A-C, A-D, B-C, B-D, C-D), and each diver has to watch for 3 other members.

Three can be OK, but I think two twos beats the complexity of four.

 

[simbrooks]

Just to be clear.
Three man teams are fine.

A buddy pair with a third diver along for the ride is not such a good thing.

The key is the TEAM, as long as each diver is an equal member of the team there is no problem.

As has already been mentioned at least 3 times so far you have to combine the 3 part with the team part. I have had plenty of fun in caverns and caves in a 3 man team, we all work together, but on the outside of the wreck of on a reef around here i often find myself in a 3 man group. I work better on those dives as a buddy team or multiple buddy team (2, 4 and 6 etc). Mostly when i do 3 man groups there always seems to be one race off, one slack behind and me trying to make up the middle man keeping both in sight - i dont like this and have refused to dive with certain people who caused me to do this (some are members on this board). Sometimes one wants to look somewhere or other and the other doesnt, the group falls apart and was never a team - whatever we discussed on the surface, but of course these "buddies" dont get used again . Sometimes we have very loose groups where no-one seems to have assigned buddies, i dont like this much either as you kind of drift together - not that i would ever have trouble donating to any of them if needed, but i cant always feel 100% sure that i will get what i need when i need it with a disperate group. This only happens infrequently, but when it does i dont like it (i know "group diving" is an extension of the discussion, if not directly 3 person diving, sorry for the hijack ). If the right folks where there and we worked as a team and stuck like buddies i would have no problem with 3 people, so far my experience mirrors a few other horror stories of group diving rather than team diving. I have had good experiences river drifting in a 4 man team, none of us were buddies, but we just went downstream side by side - it also wasnt particularly deep.

 

[OE2X]

100% the only thing I would add is that we always agree who is the dive leader our job is to make sure we stay with him, his job make sure we do our job. If I want to go in a different direction I go through him he says ya or nay and we move as a team

Ditto.

We always try to keep the leader in the middle with the other two divers on his/her wings. Personally I like dive teams like this.

When we go to four, we do primary buddies, but agreeing that we will stick together as a group.